That is your opinion. Do you have any hard facts to back it up? All I have are my own experiences, and what is printed in black and white in that little book we call the UPCI manual.

You wouldn't have known the difference hearing him or most of his contemporaries preach, Barb.

The difference between most of the PCI men of that day and the ones who claim it today is in their emphasis and choice of fellowship.

Men like Oscar Vouga chose to throw their lot in with those who strongly promoted the New Birth message, such as PAJC men.

Many of the ones who claim to believe the PCI doctrine today use it as a basis for breaking fellowship with strong Apostolic preachers, and prefer rather to fellowship with those who don't even believe all that similarly.

This is a big difference.

You can't compare the men like Vouga who preached the New Birth with fervor and passion to these glorified Baptists today who have more in common with easy-believism preachers than with Apostolic men who will declare the whole counsel of God.

Nobody said Oscar Vouga had horns, or was a bad man.

But he was a different breed than a lot of the characters who claim to represent his position.

That is because those who, in your words, "declare the whole counsel of God" cast those into hell who are any different than they are. Who wants to fellowship with that? And who is really "breaking fellowship"?

LOL!! I was trying to make a point, Elder...sorry...

But now I have a question...

As a layperson I am wondering, respectfully...you stated that many PCI folks use doctrine as a basis for breaking fellowship.

But who broke away from whom if they were pushed into the proverbial corner, or am I not understanding how it went?

But the facts are the facts and there has always been variance on when "new birth" takes place. But repentance, baptism in Jesus name have been preached as essentials and so was the baptism of the Holy GHost with tongues evidence. It was preached very strongly to me. And we've always placed the "essental" emphasis on it to the point where we had very few in any church we pastored who hadn't received the Holy Ghost (baptism) and spoke in tongues.

Sometimes pastors won't share with one another what they really think and belief because of the "peer pressure" factor and the fact that they don't want to given themselves away in that regard.

I acknowledge the fact that most in the UPC state the new birth position in the PAJC format. We were part of the UPC as far as ministerial license for 25 years and never had any problem with exception being taken with what we taught, preached and exemplified in regard to doctrine or the AoF either.

There are those who go down the compromise road to the point where there's no longer emphasis on Holy Ghost baptism and where it no longer matters how a person is baptized, etc. and I feel badly about that. It does happen.

Methinks its sad that pentecostals watch ex-pentecostals on TV.,\ :club

How do you know they are ex-pentecostals?

Methinks it's sad that anyone cares what other people watch on TV or if they watch it at all. :)

Aw now...maybe what he was really expressing is that we should be watching Pentecostals on TV, not ex-pentecostals :-)

I wonder though if it's ok to watch Methodists...

BTW anyone know if the Jehovahs Witnesses are on TV? I know the Mormons have a satellite broadcast