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Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

Continued:

Quote:

Part V: What Does It Mean To Be Pregnant and Unmarried?
Roughly 1 of every 3 births in the U.S. is out-of-wedlock. Nearly 1 of 4 white births,
nearly 7 of 10 black births, and more than 4 of 10 Hispanic births are to unwed
mothers.xxxii

Part V, Finding #1
There is no correlation between out-of-wedlock births and abortion rates.
Six Southern states are among the top 10 in out-of-wedlock births. But there is no
correlation between states that have many of out-of-wedlock births and abortion rates.
States with the highest percentage of births to unmarried women
have abortion rates near the national average (2001)xxxiii
State % Births Out of Wedlock Abortion Rank*
Louisiana 46.3% of births out-of-wedlock 32nd in state abortion rate
Mississippi 46.3 33rd
New Mexico 46.3 19th
South Carolina 40.1 28th
Delaware 39.9 3rd
Arizona 39.5 42nd
Florida 39.0 2nd
Georgia 37.3 17th
Nevada 37.2 9th
Arkansas 36.1 36th
Mean 40.8% of births out-of-wedlock 22nd in state abortion rate
States with the lowest percentage of births to unmarried women
have abortion rates near the national average (2001)xxxiv
State % Births Out of Wedlock Abortion Rank
Utah 17.4% of births out-of-wedlock 45th in state abortion rate
Idaho 22.0 46th
New Hampshire 24.2 n/a
Colorado 25.0 47th
Minnesota 26.3 20th
Massachusetts 26.7 7th
Nebraska 27.7 38th
North Dakota 27.9 41st
Iowa 28.8 34th
Washington 28.8 5th
Mean 25.5% of births out-of-wedlock 31st in state abortion rate
* Abortion statistics unavailable for California, New Hampshire, and Alaska. Louisiana and Florida figures
include out-of-state residents who had abortions performed in those states.

Part VI: Do Abortion Laws Affect Abortion Rates?
The evidence suggests that laws may affect abortion rates, but only modestly. Third
Way will be preparing a future issue brief on this subject but thought a few facts were
worth noting here. Women in states with restrictive laws will travel to other states to
have abortions. And even in foreign countries that restrict abortions entirely, millions of
abortions are performed.

Part VI, Finding #1
Nearly half of all abortions are performed in countries that have banned
the procedure.
• 97% of all abortions occur outside the United States.
• Of the 46 million abortions that are performed each year, 20 million (44%) occur in
countries where the procedure is illegal.xxxv

Part VI, Finding #2
The ratio of teen abortions to adult abortions is the same in states with
strong, moderate, and weak parental consent laws.
Teen abortion rates in states with strict parental consent laws are nearly half that of
states with no consent or notification laws in place. But teen abortion rates may have
less to do with the local laws and more to do with local views and demographics that
reduce the incidence of abortion in general. For example, though states with strict
consent laws have lower teen abortion rates than states with no laws, the ratio of teen
abortions to all abortions in these two sets of states is roughly the same.
The reason for this could be because parents of pregnant teens often demand that
their child undergo an abortion. It is quite possible that if teens were forced to notify
parents of a pregnancy, abortion rates would go up, not down.
• In 2001, abortions were performed on 33 out of 10,000 teens in states with strict
parental consent laws.
• In 2001, abortions were performed on 39 out of 10,000 teens in states with
moderate parental notification laws.
• In 2001, abortions were performed on 63 out of 10,000 teens in states with no
consent/notification laws.*xxxvi
But as a percentage of overall abortions in each of these categories of states, teen
abortions are close to the same suggesting that consent and notification laws have little
impact on abortion.
In 2001, teens represented 17.6% of all abortions in states with strict parental
consent laws, 17.0% of all abortions in states with moderate parental notification laws,
and 19.1% of all abortions in states with no consent/notification laws.xxxvii
* Alabama, Arizona, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri,
North Carolina, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Wisconsin,
and Wyoming require the consent of at least one parent and allows for a judicial bypass.
Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Iowa, Kansas, Maryland, Minnesota, Nebraska, Ohio, South
Dakota, Texas, Utah, and West Virginia require the notification of at least one parent and all except Utah
allow for a judicial bypass. Alaska, California, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Montana,
Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington either have no law or a law that was struck down by the court. Abortion data are unavailable
for Alaska, California, Florida, and New Hampshire.
Percent of Abortions Sought by Teens and Adults,
By Type of Parental Involvement Law
0%
20%
40%
60%
80%
100%
Strict (parental consent) laws Moderate (parental
notification) laws
No consent/notification laws
Teens
Adults

Sources:
i Kaiser Foundation, “Abortion in the U.S. Fact Sheet,” January 2003.
ii Alan Guttmacher Institute and Physicians for Reproductive Choice, “An Overview of Abortion in the
United States,” 2003.
iii Henry J. Kaiser Foundation, “Abortion in the U.S Fact Sheet,” January 2003.
iv Guttmacher et al, “An Overview of Abortion in the United States,” 2003.
v National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, “2002 National Survey of Family Growth,” December
2004.
vi Ibid.
vii Guttmacher, et al.
viii Source: Alan Guttmacher Institute and Physicians for Reproductive Choice, “An Overview of Abortion in
the United States,” 2003.
ix Centers for Disease Control, “Abortion ratio by age group of women who obtained a legal abortion,”
2001.
x Peter Kosik, “Differences in Income by Age,” 2003.
xi Ibid.
xii Guttmacher, et al.
xiii Gallup Poll, 12,000 interviews, yearly survey of religious preferences, 2003.
xiv Guttmacher, et al.
xv Gallup, 2003.
xvi Guttmacher et al.
xvii Ibid.
xviii Ibid.
xix Source: Centers for Disease Control, “Reported legal abortions, by number of previous legal induced
abortions,” 2001.
xx Guttmacher, et al.
xxi Ibid.
xxii Ibid.
xxiii William Saletan, Bearing Right: How Conservatives Won the Abortion War, page 192, University of
California Press, 2003.
xxiv Ibid.
xxv Ibid.
xxvi Guttmacher, et al.
xxvii Centers for Disease Control, Abortion Surveillance.
xxviii Source: National Center for Health Statistics, 2002.
xxix Centers for Disease Control, “Reported number, ratio, and rate of legal abortions by residence and
occurrence,” 2001.
xxx Ibid.
xxxi State parental consent laws were obtained from website for the Center for Reproductive Rights.
xxxii National Vital Statistics Report, December 17, 2003.
xxxiii National Center for Health Statistics, 2002.
xxxiv Ibid.
xxxv Guttmacher, et al.
xxxvi Centers for Disease Control, Report legal abortions, by age group of women who obtained an
abortion and state of occurrence, 2001.
xxxvii Ibid.

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbpew (Post 468579)

Antipas, I applaud your ability to sweep away the foolish rhetoric of man-v-man yak and your attempt to bring the discussion back to an important consideration (and certainly THANKS are due Chris for the challenging introspection that this thread is attempting to provoke).

It is very reasonable that we each need to consider if an informed purchaser of goods and services would transact business with a centrally controlled economy that denies its citizen's the freedom to have more than one child.

Especially if we're Pro-Life. Doing business with a Communist regime like this is far worse than voting Democratic. Why are so many Christians druken with the promises of Free Trade without considering Fair Trade policies that protect human rights and local economies?

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

Good luck finding anything that isn't made in China, when you go to the store.

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

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Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 468582)

In spite of the fact that I disagree with the premise of this thread, I personally try to purchase goods produced elsewhere and preferably the US. However, I am in a position to do that at this point. Many folks are on a very tight budget, and are effectively forced to buy the cheapest items. Not everyone can buy a Stihl chainsaw (made in a variety of countries but not China...yet). I hate Chinese junk. But that doesn't mean a purchase of Chinese junk is equal to forcing abortions. This is an old policy for the Chinese and they enforce it just like they always have.

Would you buy good from Nazi Germany if you were on a "tight budget"?

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

I think the point made in the post by ChristopherHall wasn't political...it was spiritual. Review what was said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall (Post 468456)

No. I doubt we could do much to change trade policies.

But...as we speak there is much anguish being felt and much pressure on the Chinese government over the issue. Now is the time to hit our knees and go to war, praying that China change it's policies in this area in some measure, in the hopes that God relents.

Now is also a time to consider that if we do not pray for changes in China... and we do not pray for our own nation's willingness to ignore the most blatant of human rights violations for profit... we may very well be next in line to reap the whirlwind. The stars shall fall from over America, the sun shall become black and the moon will not give her light. And the merchants who were made rich by her idolatry and materialism will hide in the dens and in the rocks. There they shall weep as their gold becomes cankered and their garments moth eaten. As the LORD smote the gods of Egypt so shall he smite the god of America, for much of her profits are drenched in the blood of children and the tears of the oppressed.

There are ways to shop that ensure that you do the majority of your business with Fair Trade sources.

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 468594)

Good luck finding anything that isn't made in China, when you go to the store.

Hey Rico,
I hear ya.
I wonder how long we would have to boycott non-perishable items at Walmart before they would take notice?

My guess....90 days.
Can we manage without plastic thermos, inflatiable rafts, CD's, and motion lights for three months?

We all seem to want to possess mor and more plastic junk, but if there was a cause, I think the mothers who are doing all this shopping would be very empathetic with the mothers in China who are being denied the right to have a second or third child.

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

i am an american who votes his conscience and heart consistently, i dont live in china, what happens there is well beyond the pervue of my authority and responsibility, i am accountable to god for myself and my house, i dont and will not be guilty for what the chinese governtment does to there people, they are communists i am not, i pray for them constantly, that is all i can do for them now, dt

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

Good luck with your boycott. Christians accomplished zilch with their boycott of Disney and y'all think boycotting Chinese made products is going to make a difference in Chinese birth control? Yeah right.

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas (Post 468585)

You make some good points; please site where you’re statistics came from.

You’re placing the benefits of economic policies above morality. Would you support free and open trade with Nazi Germany if the ovens and gas chambers were in use?

China is a communist country. Factories etc. are chartered and essentially owned by the government and only operated by private interests. Therefore the factory is an extension of government in China. The government of China benefits from revenues generated by trade with the US through taxation and global recognition and respect.

I’d really appreciate it if you would answer this question:

Would you support free and open trade with Nazi Germany if the ovens and gas chambers were in use? Yes or No?

I fear the assumption of this thread is right. We don’t care about human life or rights if the price is right. If you buy Chinese, you're voting with your dollar. Just as if you were buying Nazi German goods during WWII. Morally, one should strive to only buy from Fair Trade networks that respect human rights.

The forced abortion rooms of China are worse than the rape rooms in Iraq.

You continue to avoid the issues presented by the WND article.

Sure I will provide the website I got the numbers from, which are pretty much the same as what you posted though you didn't say which group provided the "analysis" for those numbers. Mind letting us know where that came from?

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
The following is a list of useful abortion statistics as well as some facts on abortifacients. All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives.

As to the way they skew the numbers I am sure you can find it, I simply related my own experience from dealing with places like PP (which I will not elaborate on) who have reported questionable if not outright lies for years to provide statistics that are helpful to their industry.

I don't think the Germany question has a yes or no answer. There are a number of factors that should be taken into consideration. Not all of them are obvious. Sometimes the flow of money to a nation and the threat of eliminating it is more effective than no flow at all. questions such as the is it available elsewhere? Who receives the profit from it? US companies often receive the major portion of those profits. When Intel has its chips manufactured in China they retain most of the money you pay for it.

I have already said I have a great dislike for purchasing Chinese junk, but I don't think the answers are as easy as some of you would like to think.

Re: Should U.S. Share Guilt For China Abortions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 468605)

so rico,
can we put you down in the YES column that you would just say "what's the use" and would have bought the lower cost toasters from Nazi Germany? Just curious, is there anything other than price that would prompt action in your personal buying decisions?