Apostolic Friends Forum - First the AG, next the UPC???

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- - First the AG, next the UPC??? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=9240)

TRFrance

11-07-2007 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sola gratia (Post 286978)

can anyone post any link that validates this thread... other than heresay?

thanks

OK. Lets start with this--

http://ag.org/top/news/news_article_...cordCount=2936

(from a September 2006 news release by the Assemblies of God entitled "Pentecostal Discipleship - a desperate need in the AG ")

"During the annual Assemblies of God General Presbytery meeting held this past August in Springfield, Missouri, statistics were presented that revealed an alarming trend in the Assemblies of God that brought immediate action.

According to AG Assistant General Superintendent Charles Crabtree, last year only 25 percent of new converts followed Christ in water baptism, with only 20 percent receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

“If we continue this trend,” Crabtree states, “in 10 years, we will have a very small percentage of Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God.”

Makes me very sad to see stuff like this.
So many people sitting in these churches thinking they're saved, and theyre not!

I'm shocked to see a denomination just steadily decline like this. And there seems to be no end in sight.

Steve Epley

11-07-2007 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance (Post 296027)

OK. Lets start with this--

from: http://blogrodent.wordpress.com/2006...ng-disciplers/

"Now, eight months later, BING! Charles Crabtree, the assistant general superintendent of the Assemblies of God, has been appointed to a new position: the A/G’s discipleship czar or, rather, ”commissioner on Discipleship.”

In a recent news article on the A/G website, culled from a message he preached in the headquarters chapel, he notes that only 25% of new converts follow through to water baptism, and only 20% experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Further, only about 4% actually make it to the Sunday morning worship service."

Now if only 4% of your "converts" are showing up for Sunday morning service, how much of a conversion did they really go through?

Thank you.

dizzyde

11-07-2007 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 286911)

Some need to lift the weight of the world off of their small and very weak shoulders, God has not delegated His world to any of us. Thank goodness!!!!

I LOVE that!!!

TRFrance

11-07-2007 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 296034)

Thank you.

Bro Steve, I went ahead and edited my post to show the original whole article in full (from the AG website), to give more complete context.

As far as the 4% statistic, its based on this (from the same article):

"Another alarming statistic is that of the more than 5.3 million stated decisions for Christ in the AG over the past 10 years, the reflection in Sunday morning service saw an increase of only about 222,000 - just four percent."

A 4% increase over 10 years.. (0.4% per year) is an appalling number, sorry to say.

Just goes to show that this whole "sinners prayer"/ "make a decision for Christ" plan of salvation is good for showing high numbers, but the experiential depth isnt there for true long term growth and revival.

Mrs. LPW

11-07-2007 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak (Post 286911)

I just heard the testimony of two Muslim clerics from Baghdad, having the very same dream of the revelation of Jesus Christ. Guess where the Spirit of God sent these new converts? To the Assembly of God mission in Amman, Jordan. The word was "go to the house of God in Amman, and the men of God will instruct you". They spent one month in Jordan, now they have over seven home churches in Iraq flourishing underground. The A of G has a Muslim division that is surging into the Middle East as God opens doors. This is a pretty good outcome, I would say.

The progression to liberalism is very common in every organization it is just delayed in some more than others. Then there very often is a return to more conservative views if the org survives. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, some men try to take on the responsibility of being God. I just want to know where He is working around me today so I can join Him in what he is doing. I'll leave the bigger picture to Him.

Some need to lift the weight of the world off of their small and very weak shoulders, God has not delegated His world to any of us. Thank goodness!!!!

What this proves, is that God doesn't look at organizations and names.. but he'll send people to where they'll hear what they need to hear. It doesn't negate the Oneness of God, the necessity for baptism in Jesus Name or the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I'm thankful they had someplace to go to hear more.

TRFrance

11-07-2007 08:40 PM

Any "Pentecostal" denomination where only 20% of its new converts get filled with the Holy Ghost and only 25% get baptized is not really pentecostal at all.

Truly the AG is now more of an Evangelical denomination than pentecostal.

If its true, as I'm hearing, that they have preachers in the AG who never received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, then this denomination has slipped farther than I thought.

Unfortunately, I get the sense the same is true in a lot of other Trinitarian pentecostal denominations, especially ones that go by the the mantra: "saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost". The mere fact that they teach the HG as being something optional after salvation tells me they have many members siting in their pews, being told they're already saved (because they "accepted Jesus"), even if they don't have the HG.

I don't want to sound like I'm gloating at all, because I'm not. This is a sad state of affairs, no doubt. But I know how through the years many in the AG have had some very harsh things to say about apostolics and UPC in particular. ...which brings 2 particular scriptures to mind here:

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his (2 Tim 2:19) and "Let God be true, and every man a liar" (Rom 3:4) .

At times like this, when I look at the whole landscape of Christendom, and see the doctrinal error that's being taught on such a wide scale, I'm very, very grateful to God for allowing me to be Apostolic. Glory to his name.

(my 2 cents.)

pelathais

11-08-2007 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance (Post 296203)

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his (2 Tim 2:19) and "Let God be true, and every man a liar" (Rom 3:4) .

I think some of that is also skewed a bit by what it means to be a "convert" in these reports.

Show up at a rally and go forward and fill out a card. Then two weeks later you get a message on your voice mail that you're too busy to respond to. So you never go to "church" and checking out Benny Hinn just turned you off to religion again.

That's a "convert" in most of the AoG. I was a "convert" in the AoG twice, a Southern Baptist once and "independent" and "charismatic" several times before I even had my driver's license as a teenager.

meBNme

11-09-2007 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 286169)

This from an organization that SOLE reason for their existance was HGB. Less than 100 years and here they are. I am afraid some sectors of Pentecost are following their steps.

I agree. Some are to concerned with "professional Pentecostalism" to be bothered with a move of God.

It might mess up the strut, or the rhythm.

TRFrance

11-09-2007 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 297042)

Well said. However this speaks directly to the issue of what passes for salvation among these people. To them, if you "accept Jesus" youre saved.

At best, "acepting Jesus" is only repentance. And repentance by itself does not constitute salvation.

The mere fact that these people can "accept Jesus", be counted as "converts", and then 3 weeks later, you look at them and its like nothing happened... that just shows how shallow the "conversion experience" is in churches that espouse this teaching, which is based on unsound biblical doctine to begin with.

Its a shame that some formerly strong Apostolic churches have drifted into this doctrinal fallaciousness, which only gives people a false sense of salvation and security.

OneAccord

11-09-2007 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster (Post 286100)

This is what the new breed of PCI mush is pushing for.

I don't know what the "new breed of PCI mush" is, not do I know what they (or it) is "pushing for", but what I see in this "new breed" is a renewed emphasis on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, with less emphasis on doctrinal issues, which seems to have gotten us exactly nowhere. The 21st Century and we are still debating the in's and out's of water baptism. The role of women in Christian ministry. The varied veiws of "standards", The opposing views of the Oneness of the Godhead. To TV or not TV. The exact things that divided the early church seems to keep us divided. What the NEW BREED of Apostolic Christians (IMO) stands for is this:

Hbr 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

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