Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Can you show me those words anywhere in the Bible? I mean together, APOSTOLIC FATHER or APOSTOLIC FATHERS?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Exodus 3:6 and Acts 7:32

Sean, where are the verses calling the apostles fathers?

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Sean, what about Jesus being one of the fathers that fell asleep? Why would these scoffers scoff at a coming, if they thought Jesus was still a father who was asleep? Sean, you never explained that one? :lol

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Just consider me Elijah and you the Prophet of Baal. :slaphappy

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I hope we are all aware that Jesus is alive by now.

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I'm just trying to figure out why they would scoff at Him coming, if they believed He was sleeping? :lol

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I do hereby dub thee Sir "Job" Benincasa, for thy patience doth deserve much honour and praise.

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It started out fairly well, I started to think Sean wasn't going to have one of his melt downs. But alas, he just can't go through a thread without losing his cool.

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Can it become a requirement that men take a minimum of 2 years college before they become a preacher. Please. Thanks.

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The guy is arguing in the debate forum how Jesus is NOT God, and now apparently he doesn't know Jesus resurrected? Looks like a cult in the making...

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But, who would hang around him long enough to join? ;)

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Okay preterists, this commentary may help you understand also......


Since the fathers fell asleep.—What fathers are meant? Four answers have been given to this question: (1) The ancestors of the human race; (2) the patriarchs and prophets; (3) the first generation of Christians; (4) each generation of men in relation to those following. Probably nothing more definite than our remote ancestors is intended. The expression “fell asleep” is used of St. Stephen’s death in Acts 7:60 (comp. Matthew 27:52; 1Corinthians 7:39, where the word is not literally translated; 1Corinthians 15:6; 1Corinthians 15:18, &c). The thoroughly Christian term “cemetery” (=sleeping-place), in the sense of a place of repose for the dead, comes from the same Greek root.

There is a passage quoted by Clement of Rome (circ. A.D. 100) which seems at first sight to contain a reference to this verse: “Far be from us this Scripture where He saith, Wretched are the double-minded, who doubt in heart and say, These things we heard in the times of our fathers also, but behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened to us” (Epistle to the Corinthians, xxiii.). But the remainder of this “Scripture,” as quoted by Clement, is so utterly unlike the verse before us, that one suspects some other source. And this suspicion is confirmed when we find the same passage quoted in the so-called Second Epistle of Clement (xi.) as “the prophetic word.” (See on 2Peter 1:19 and on 2Peter 2:9). The differences between the two quotations are such that the pseudo-Clement appears to be quoting independently, and not merely borrowing from the true Clement. In neither case does close inspection encourage us to believe that our present verse is the source of the quotation. But the quotation by the true Clement is important as a complete refutation of the objection that “the fathers” means the first Christians, and consequently no such scoffing argument as this would be possible in the lifetime of St. Peter This very argument was not only in existence, but was condemned in a document which Clement before the close of the first century could quote as “Scripture.” Comp. Epistle of Poly carp, chap. vii.: “Whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says there is neither resurrection nor judgment, he is the firstborn of Satan.”

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4OjPZQLPnQDKcQ

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

for since the fathers fell asleep] Ordinarily, the “fathers,” as in Romans 9:5, would carry our thoughts back to the great progenitors of Israel as a people. Here, however, the stress laid by the mockers on the death of the fathers as the starting-point of the frustrated expectation, seems to give the word another application, and we may see in the “fathers” the first generation of the disciples of Christ, those who had “fallen asleep” without seeing the Advent they had looked for (1 Thessalonians 4:15); those who had reached the “end of their conversation” (Hebrews 13:7). The scoffers appealed to the continuity of the natural order of things. Seed-time and harvest, summer and winter, followed as they had done from the beginning of the creation. In the last phrase we may trace an echo of Mark 10:6; Mark 13:19. “You have told us,” they seem to have said, “of an affliction such as there has not been from the beginning of the creation, and lo! we find the world still goes on as of old, with no great catastrophe.” The answer to the sneer St Peter gives himself, but it may be noted that the question of the scoffers at least implies the early date of the writings in which the expectation of the Coming is prominent.

In the use of the verb to “fall asleep” for dying, we are reminded of our Lord’s words “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth” (John 11:11); of St Paul’s “many sleep” (1 Corinthians 11:30). So in Greek sculpture Death and Sleep appear as twin genii, and in Greek and Roman epitaphs nothing is more common than the record that the deceased “sleeps” below. Too often there is the addition, as of those who were without hope, “sleeps an eternal sleep.” In Christian language the idea of sleep is perpetuated in the term “cemetery” (κοιμητήριον = sleeping-place) as applied to the burial-place of the dead, but it is blended with that of an “awaking out of sleep” at the last day, and even with the thought, at first seemingly incompatible with it, that the soul is quickened into higher energies of life on its entrance into the unseen world.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4OjPZQLPnQDKcQ

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Verses that prove the Apostles/ elders were considered "spiritual" fathers...



Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord....

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.....

To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.....

Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children....

I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.....

For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
.....

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And yes, the apostle Peter knew he would die(sleep) prior to the end of the age....


John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep(Peter included himself), all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.




Peter says that in the Last Days, before the return of Jesus Christ, scoffers would come and say the founders of Christianity died(including Jesus), and nothing has changed from the beginning of time.

We clearly see that idea perpetuated in this generation, with the belief in the theory of evolution etc..

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Sean,

If that was read and considered, we would all have to agree that you have a good point.

But unfortunately since Clement and Polycarp were not preterist.

The preterist on this forum will not except their 1st hand account.

Even though they were disciples of the apostles, and their sons in the gospel.

Jmho

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Why? Don't you know a college education doesn't make anyone any less stupid?

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So at least we know they tried to gain some critical thinking skills. :heeheehee

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And maybe they'd find something they'd rather do than to enter the ministry.

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College doesn't give you critical thinking skills either. Some of the dumbest people I know graduated college. Some of the most gullible people too.

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If this was a requirement then almost none of the apostles would have been apostles. Most of the apostolic fathers and early church pioneers that brought us this wonderful truth in America were not college-educated. They were just anointed and called of God.

That's why you are not a preacher

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Oh, please...
:throwrock

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Yes my brother, belief in preterism has clouded the minds of men to reach into other sources and abandon the contextual and literal content of the passages.
It is a powerful belief system, that sends them down rabbit holes to follow and vindicate a group such as this....

http://revelationrevolution.org/how-...es-in-genesis/
Heaven and earth have been renewed at least eight times throughout Biblical history and the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. ....

Whenever a nation was conquered by another, the Bible often portrays this conquest as the destruction and creation of heaven and earth. .....

both Eden and the New Jerusalem are places in both heaven and earth. Thus Genesis 2-3 tells a heavenly story with an earthly shadow. At its heavenly level, Genesis 2-3 is a story about Adam being cast out of the Eden that is in heaven to Earth. The curses of Genesis 3:14-19 were the result of Adam, the Serpent and Eve being cast from heaven to earth to experience these punishments in a world that had presumably already been this way for millennia.....












.http://www.googleadservices.com/page...revolution.org........


You should see the pages of insanity that preterists believe in the post above.






Now Bro. Perez, this is why this argument ensued yesterday, the preterists involved believe this is what 2 Peter 3 is "really" saying....




John Owen
"On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state;...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...QP-WMzj491Ry9A



Is that just INSANE, or what?...LOL





You see Bro. Perez...Many of these preterist leaning commentators like the one mentioned, lived at a time that Israel was not a nation. They were impatient, then in their haste, began to "spiritualize" the passages about Israel because they were trying to vindicate the Bible and their conceived impossibility of Israel re-emerging as a nation.
They can now rest in their graves and believe the Word of God as it says....Israel IS a nation once again and the prophecies of a coming messiah to reign over Israel and the world are ready to be realized!

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

So, an "A" for effort? :heeheehee

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Hmmm. Maybe he's not a preacher because he was not called to be one.

Bro. J.A., why have you stolen my father's name?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

No ma'am,
It was given to me by my mother, I didn't steal it, I promise it was actually my father's name first, and his name is Jose Al.

And I really wasn't throwing rocks at him honest, we in California do drive-bys. :heeheehee

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

ROFL.

I kid you not when I say my dad's name is Joseph Albert... and my maiden name is Perez.... but we are Louisiana people on my dad's side, specifically Islenos (roots from the Canary Islands). Can't help but think of my dad when I see your

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Many decades ago in another life I was a Finance guy at a car dealership and was taking a credit application from a young lady who had just graduated from a college named Huston Tillotson.

Being in Texas I had heard of it but wasn't sure of the spelling. I had a feeling it wasn'illt "Houston" but wasn't sure so asked her how to spell it. She didn't know!

I wondered how someone could attend a college long enough to graduate from it and not even know how to spell the name of it!!!

Around the same time my wife met a young woman who was a college graduate who in a conversation with my wife revealed that she did indeed take birth control pills "when she had a date"!!!

So yes a college degree does not insure someone is not stupid.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Nowadays a college degree is a good indication a person is lacking in the common sense department. As much money as is spent on a degree that is more and more likely to do nothing but put a person forever into debt while working the rest of their life in some other field (like McDonald's), it seems common sense would dictate spending that money on starting a business or learning an actually practical skill that is marketable.

Most college grads I've known may have had a full six pack but they were just missing the little plastic thingy that held it all together.

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:lol good analogy

Sean, I'm passing curious now, how Posterists interpret this passage? ty
1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

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Sean still failed to produce any scripture where the apostles were called the fathers. Sorry, but you have failed like you have in every single thread you have entered and posted your mythology. :lol

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That wasn't very nice.

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I will go with number 2 :lol

You need to stop going to the church of Google.

Sean, find the scripture where the apostles were called the fathers.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

2 Peter 3:4-6. Where is the promise of his coming — To raise the dead, judge mankind, and destroy the earth? We see no sign of any such thing. The promise of Christ’s coming we have Matthew 15:27, The Son of man shall come in his glory, &c.; John 14:3, I will come and receive you to myself, &c., and in many other passages of the gospel; a promise which was renewed by the angels at our Lord’s ascension, and is spoken of in many passages of the epistles, especially in those of St. Paul. By representing Christ’s promised coming as a delusion, the scoffers set themselves and others free from all fear of a future judgment, and bereft the righteous of their hope of reward. For since the fathers fell asleep — Since our ancestors died; all things — Heaven, earth, air, water; continue as they were from the beginning of the creation — Without any such material change as might make us believe they will ever have an end. So say these scoffers.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-4.htm

Sean, maybe you should read these websites before you post. You just cherry pick, because you haven't the slightest idea of what you believe. Jesus was one of the fathers that fell asleep? You tripped over your feet on that one. Yet, you let that post get buried and didn't even produce any commentary from your mentor Google concerning Jesus being one of the father's that fell asleep. :heeheehee

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for since the fathers fell asleep; or "died": which is the language of the Scriptures, and here sneered at by these men, who believe them so fast asleep as never to be awaked or raised more; and by "the fathers" they mean the first inhabitants of the world, as Adam, Abel, Seth, &c. and all the patriarchs and prophets in all ages; the Ethiopic version renders it, "our first fathers":

all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation; reasoning from the settled order of things, the constant revolution of the sun, moon, and stars, the permanency of the earth, and the succession of the inhabitants of it, to the future continuance of things, without any alteration; and consequently, that Christ would not come, as was promised, to raise the dead, judge mankind destroy the world, and set up a new state of things: the fallacy of which reasoning is exposed by the apostle in the following words.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-4.htm

Nice web page Sean. :slaphappy

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I passed along 5 passages that the apostles referred to themselves or elders as spiritual fathers, but you reject them.....

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Here they are.

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Did you notice I inserted a site with multiple points of view, including your preterist point of view?

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Did you know that the consensus of sinners(unbelievers)say that all of the Biblical founders(fathers) of Christianity died and are still dead, including Jesus?

Do you think these scoffers believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

You do???

I dare you to say that!