Apostolic Friends Forum - This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

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Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 866407)

And, if God did bring this disaster on Haiti in judgment (though I haven't seen anyone actually claim that He did, other than Pat Robertson -- as he strongly implied, anyway -- some have said that He may have), am I wrong to say you ought to just back off, and let Him take care of it as He sees fit?

I think the only ones who could answer that would be the ones who do think it was God's judgment. For the rest of us, it's a pointless question.

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

BTW, I didn't really mean to imply that Christians are not helping, though I can see how it looked that way. That wasn't my point. I'm very glad that people of all stripes are pitching in to help!

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Oh, and another BTW: I don't hate Christians! :lol

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 866407)

Thank you. I appreciate AFF's hospitality. If I crossed a line, I apologize. But can you actually address some of the points I have made? E.g., is it not true that Jesus (according to those would would ask Him and report the answer they received) would tell some people Yes and others No? I'd have to see it to believe it, if His answers are all the same!

And, if God did bring this disaster on Haiti in judgment (though I haven't seen anyone actually claim that He did, other than Pat Robertson -- as he strongly implied, anyway -- some have said that He may have), am I wrong to say you ought to just back off, and let Him take care of it as He sees fit?

I forgive you.

To your first question -- God's judgement is normally preceded by prophecy, not announced with prophecy. These that claim Jesus ordered the judgement on an entire nation, have they said God told them? If they have, the entire Christian world (majority) have rebuked and denied such a "word from the LORD." I would also want to examine each so-called prophet, and judge them on their track record. It's easy to be an after-the-fact prophet, but God always affirms his prophetic word with signs and wonders -- in other words, there is a supernatural phenom associated (which may include a foretelling of specific things). Some Christians can really miss it. This doesn't contradict the mouth of God.

Regarding your second question: the claims of PR and even those on this post that said he "may" support a punitive catastrophe. This also begs the question if the catastrophe allowed or unstopped by God was punitive, or allowed to bring about His will. That would be a huge difference. This is why I have trouble with those who say he has punished the entire nation for the sins of what many call the majority. This is not consistent with the New Covenant, and I reject that.

In hypotheticals, if it were punishment, then yes -- our call and mission is to one of graciousness. By all means, help!

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 866374)

Yes, by all means, ask Jesus if he did it. If He says yes, then what? Wouldn't it be wrong to help the survivors? Shouldn't you just let Jesus take care of them, as He sees fit? Maybe the ones He spared are the "good" people of Haiti; if so, He'll provide for them. But maybe they, too, are evil people (and/or descendants of those evil people who made a pact with the devil); if so, He wants them to suffer, and if you help them, you would be going against His will.

Either way, you guys can just relax. Let us unbelievers provide relief. We don't know any better, so maybe God will have mercy on us.

I would be willing to bet the number of believers that give relief is much higher than Timmy would insinuate.

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 866408)

There's no need for tears. Christians are doing their part, as always.

I'm very aware of the efforts of the Christian community and tomorrow, our church will join in that effort by joining an effort the Bill Hybels and The Willow Creek Association is spearheading.

But I certainly DO feel the need for tears. I'll tell you why....there are always people like Robertson, Hagee, Falwell, and company that are incredibly embarrassing to Christianity. THEY are the ones that get the publicity and as I said earlier, we all take the hit because of them. It saddens me. In the meantime, every person I see saying hurtful things about the people of Haiti, Katrina, 9-11, the tsunami, are "Christians". I don't see anyone besides Christians (and if there are, I'll recant) that are saying the things that Christians are.

That moves me to tears.

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks (Post 866360)

Posted by Esther:

Non-Christians have never understood Christians.

I totally agree with him (Dobson). There is NO fruit of BO being a Christian. NONE. He even told foreign countries this nation is no longer a Christian nation. That is a lie. True there are many that do not serve God, but I still believe this is a Christian nation.

A true christian should know the answer to that question. PRAYER. Ask God.

You may have reasons to question God, but you have no good reason to hate God.

I am very distrubed by many of the post here in this thread.

It is obvious to me many don't know God.

His ways are above our ways, His thoughts are above our thoughts.

•••100%, completely out of context. That passage was talking about the people that God would love and forgive, not who he would judge. This isn't even "scripture-twisting". It's a complete ignorance of what the bible actually says.

What is taken out of context? Saying God's ways are not our ways? That describes Him, not just a single situation.

God is Love! Yet He is also a judge. If you choose to disobey His Word/Commandments then you choose to be punished.

Is it cruel for a parent to tell their child you can't play in the street? OR is the love the parent has for the child to not get run over and killed or badly hurt?

Does that make the parent cruel? No. Neither is God a cruel God because He says no.

And just as the parent will discipline their child for disobeying them by running out into the road, it is the love of the parent that punishes their child. Just so with God.

Read His Word, talk to Him and IF you have a LOVE for the TRUTH, I truly believe He will show it to you.

My Response
Posts like this just frazzle my brain. If you think it's ok for Dobson to question another's Christianity, then maybe your Christianity should be questioned. If this is Christianity, I'm probably not a Christian.

I John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:[/U][/B] because many false prophets are gone out into the world

Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

IMO A true Christian would not endorse abortion, which is the very first thing BO did. A true Christian does not endorse homosexuality, which BO does. The Bible clearly tells us to check the fruit. It is quite easy to say you are a Christian but if you fruit does not bear witness to the Word of God, then we need to rely on the Word.

This I must say only good things about people even if it isn't true is very concerning.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[B][U]
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks (Post 866361)

My final thought on the matter:

One of the painful questions we occasionally ask in our staff meetings is, "If you weren't a Christian, would you become one based on what Christians say about God and based on the way they behave?" The answer is always the same. "Absolutely not."

When I say, "Behavior", I'm not talking about the Ted Haggard-type stuff, but the bumper-sticker, petition, protest, "stand-against-evil" culture of Christianity. Christians that fail don't bother me at all. I can relate to them. It's the Christians that act as if they never do fail, that bother me. I can't relate to them.

That is a very dangerous thing to do and teach. Man will always fail you. We should ONLY look to Jesus as our example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 866375)

That is such a great analogy! I get it now! The earthquake in Haiti is just God's loving way of saying "no"!

Sigh.

No you don't get it. The point being God is God and can do whatever He wants. His main desire is to see souls saved. As I stated before, to know if this was judgment ask God.

[QUOTE=Jeffrey;866376]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther (Post 866356)

I totally agree with him. There is NO fruit of BO being a Christian. NONE. He even told foreign countries this nation is no longer a Christian nation. That is a lie. True there are many that do not serve God, but I still believe this is a Christian nation.[/COLOR]

Exactly!

A true christian should know the answer to that question. PRAYER. Ask God.

To Esther: Conservative here checking in -- please put down your Obama hammer. It's blinding your thought life!!! Quit questioning his faith in Jesus. You don't know! Judge his politics not his faith. The question is not if God judges, but what are his judgements today in this time of Mercy?

His politics reflects his faith. "For every tree is known by his own fruit" He is known as a liar, he is known for agreeing with and supporting what God calls an abomination. You can NOT separate politics from faith.

If you go out and kill and steal your fruit is not that of a Christian.

He is the same today, yesterday and forever. We are in a time of grace and mercy but that does not mean He does not still judge us.

One of the main things we must remember God ultimately wants your soul saved, no matter what it takes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks (Post 866431)

I'm very aware of the efforts of the Christian community and tomorrow, our church will join in that effort by joining an effort the Bill Hybels and The Willow Creek Association is spearheading.

But I certainly DO feel the need for tears. I'll tell you why....there are always people like Robertson, Hagee, Falwell, and company that are incredibly embarrassing to Christianity. THEY are the ones that get the publicity and as I said earlier, we all take the hit because of them. It saddens me. In the meantime, every person I see saying hurtful things about the people of Haiti, Katrina, 9-11, the tsunami, are "Christians". I don't see anyone besides Christians (and if there are, I'll recant) that are saying the things that Christians are.
That moves me to tears.

Christians should be different from the world and speak differently. But all things should be done in love.

As to whether the things you listed was God's judgment you would have to take up with God. I know there have been men/women that say it was.

As to Katrina it was man's error that the levee's broke, and that is when the major devastation took place.

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther (Post 866443)

...As to Katrina it was man's error that the levee's broke, and that is when the major devastation took place.

By the same token, was it not man's error to build a city full of buildings which were not built to withstand earthquakes directly on a fault line?

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Quote:

Originally Posted by missourimary (Post 866448)

By the same token, was it not man's error to build a city full of buildings which were not built to withstand earthquakes directly on a fault line?

I would think that would definitely play into the devastation, wouldn't you?

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther (Post 866456)

I would think that would definitely play into the devastation, wouldn't you?

I think the fact that the epicenter was shallow and less than 10 miles from a densely populated and poorly built city that was built on an active fault line is the reason for the entire catastrophe.

I think back to the San Francisco earthquake. They learned some things from their mistake, but at a huge cost. http://www.sfmuseum.org/1906/06.html
And they are still building today. New Madrid, a fault in MO, had a 8.0 earthquake in 1811 that made the Mississippi River run backward and made church bells ring in Boston. The prediction is that there is a 90% chance of another earthquake of 6.0 scale or larger by 2040. http://www.hsv.com/genlintr/newmadrd/index.htm There used to be warnings about earthquake preparedness in MO. By the time I left in 2000, I was hearing very little about New Madrid. (I don't hear anything now, and almost considered some property there recently. :nah)

Earthquakes are interesting geological phenomena... and they can be devastating, especially if people aren't prepared for them.