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Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 516124)

Who said the NT went into effect when Jesus died. Him dying isn't the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Rico's right, this is not a on like a light bulb type thing...

Heb 8:13

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

KJV

The Old Covenent was still in existence when Heb. was written. It wasn't gone, it was fading away.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

There have been some really good posts on this thread so far.

I have to always keep in mind that it is only God who births us out of sin and death. Men have always been saved by faith, either in the promise that was to come or what has already been done.

The price has been paid for our salvation. It is up to us to accept what God has done for us.

We in our human nature just want to be able to have a formula or a checklist so that we can insure our salvation. I am sorry to say that following a three-step formula won't save you anymore than taking communion or going to confession. It is only by what Christ has done that we are saved and the faith in his finished work that will change our lives and allow the Holy Ghost to work in our lives.

Romans 9:6-18

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b]
8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d]
13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f]
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g]
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

I agree DG ... good discussion.

I think we need to examine what a covenant is ... before you throw the term around ...

and how are response to the gospel relates to the New Covenant.

Too many want to make their works causes for it.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Dan, will you be answering the question I asked (in post #39) ?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance (Post 516269)

Dan, will you be answering the question I asked (in post #39) ?

Maybe not now ... TR .. but I have thoughts on it.

I will remark that to most 1 steppers there is not the insatiable need to delineate dispensations since they believe OT and NT saints are saved by grace through faith yet dispensationalism is very important to many 3 steppers since they believe we can only enter the New Covenant by re-enacting the Gospel ... by 3 steps that they have linked to His Death, Burial and Resurrection through applying Acts 2:38 in their lives ... yet interestingly enough can't agree when it begins.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

I agree with MOW. God did and does what he always has. THat is why th theif was saved.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Here is a pretty good article, though 56 pages long, that outlines dispensationalism and it's influence on our thinking and reading of the Bible.

http://www.inchristalone.org/PDFiles/Everlasting.PDF

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

It would be interesting to hear Elder Epley's take ....

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 516197)

I think this thread has progressed enough that we can safely say that all who were saved under the Old Covenant were saved by faith and that their salvation was perfected in the death of Christ. The thief on the cross regardless of the covenant was saved by faith. The reason it doesn't matter is because people are saved on both sides of the death of Christ on the basis of their faith and His work. The Scripture is clear that the path to salvation has always been the same. Faith.

It is clear in Scripture that circumcision was about obedience. Circumcision alone however accomplished nothing. It was faith that was the issue, and people of faith under the Old Covenant were circumcised. People of faith under the New Covenant are baptized. Faith is the issue. Baptism does nothing on its own, it saves no one. Abraham was saved by faith apart from circumcision, but through obedience was circumcised. Believers today are saved through faith and are baptized out of obedience. The Thief is a perfect example, he was neither baptized nor circumcised after belief. Salvation is at faith under both Covenants.

Romans 4:3-13
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

First, this is a great thread and a lot of interesting points on all sides. I think the point made by Baron here is extremely important. The correlation between the obedience of circumcision in the OT and obedience of baptism in the NT is undeniable. Scripture bears that out plainly. The more OT I read concerning circumcision, the more I see the mirror image of the two in the OT and NT.

Just as plainly seen, is the point that faith was the central core of salvation that ties the OT and NT together. Faith's role in salvation in the OT is just as vital as it is in the NT. Without faith, I'll promise you no one went through the sacrifice rituals for the remission of sin. The correlation that Baron points out here is worth a lot of study and meditation by all of us.

If one accepts the faith to salvation in NT and OT, then the dispensationalists arguments concerning the thief, as intriguing as they are to me, lose their importance because faith was the key to his salvation regardless of the dispensation.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 516197)

In my opinion, that is a good, sound answer.

Hebrews 9:16-17 speaks of a testament being in force after the death of the testator. Hebrews 4:1-2 says that the Gospel was preached to us (NT) as well as unto them (OT).

Arguing over the sequence of the promise of Paradise to the repentant thief, the death of Jesus, then the death of the thief reminds me of a couple of deep, deep theological questions such as, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" and, "If God can do anything, can He create a rock which is too heavy for Him to lift?"

We need to avoid extremes. We all agree that salvation is by faith. We also agree that faith results in works. If we are not careful we can fall into an extreme position in which we over emphasize the faith aspect so strongly that we could view the Book of James as "an epistle of straw and destitute of evangelical character" as Martin Luther is alleged to have said and we could become loose and careless in our Christian walk. On the other hand, we can fall into another extreme position where unless certain works are accomplished in certain prescribed ways (and we are the ones who define which works and in which ways), the faith is not considered real or sufficient for salvation.