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- - 09-09-09 (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=26143)

I thought this was a thread about 090909?

oh well.

Only got here because the example text appeared to have a discrepency. BUT...that's what I thought. No real answer? LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK Burk (Post 799147)

That just proves what a great day that day is!! :thumbsup

Bro. Burk,
You are TOO kind!:heart
Blessings,

Falla39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 799249)

OOOOOOOH I see. So it is not a literal translation. A minor inconsistancy. Wow, I am in the midst of scholars. I am not trying to prove the bible inaccurate.

Riiiiiggghhhtttt.

Quote:

I have questions about what appear to be inconsistancies in the texts (although the "roman time" and "jewish time" thing makes a bit of sense I guess)

Since the two of you are here, please explain then to me which version of events happened on THIS day:

1. Who was actually there? 1 woman, 2 women, or 3 women?
2. Was the stone removed before they arrived or after arrival?
3. Was it still dark or daylight?
4. Did the women leave and not tell anyone because they were afraid or did they tell the disciples or did they run into Jesus after they left THEN went to tell the disciples?
5. Were there (2) angels, (1) angel, or (no) angels?

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
Qur’an 4:34

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way."
Qur’an 4:15

Why does the Koran promote hatred of Christians?

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

We are intended to put it all together and realize some accounts mentioned some of the people there and others mentioned others. The truth is, all the people mentioned in all accounts were there.

You are? Where is this idea of what you are intended to do spelled out again? You are now "the one who determines what the truth is" now? I thought the truth was spelled out in the words. What the words say and what you say appear to be different.

By the way, why does the Koran teach men to beat their wives?

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
Qur’an 4:34

By the way, why does the bible teach Christians to beat their children?

He who spares the rod hates his son

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die

BUT: The good news is "Outdated language used to justify corporal punishment of children is set to be removed from new translations of the Christian Bible in Norway". What's a jot or tittle here and there? It has already been removed hasn't it? LOL

Your example:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way."
Qur’an 4:15

You left out this part:

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors"

What is nice about this Surah is that unless (4) independent witnesses are found, the word of the woman is taken over the accusations of the accuser and the requirement is for the accuser to be flogged.

BUT: It could be worse for them. They could be under the laws spelled out in the bible:

And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Lev 20:10

OH even worse - if a new husband accuses his wife of not being a virgin (bible):

But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die

Or she could be a rape victim under the terms of the bible:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. Being a rape victim gets you the death penalty?

You were saying what again about the Quran?

Why does the Koran promote hatred of Christians?

The Quran does not promote hatred of Christians. It promotes intolerance of those who have the words in front of them and then choose to not follow them.

What the Quran says about Christians:

Also from those who said, "We are Christian," we took their covenant. But they disregarded some of the commandments given to them.

If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.
Say, "O people of the scripture, you have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."
Condemned are those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel, by the tongue of David and Jesus, the son of Mary. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.
They did not enjoin one another from committing evil. Miserable indeed is what they did.
You would see many of them allying themselves with those who disbelieve. Miserable indeed is what their hands have sent forth on behalf of their souls. GOD is angry with them and, consequently, they will abide forever in retribution.
And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."

Does not sound like this is teaching hatred to me. Perhaps you are "re-interpreting" like you did earlier with the bible.

"Why should we not believe in GOD, and in the truth that has come to us, and hope that our Lord may admit us with the righteous people?"
GOD has rewarded them for saying this; He will admit them into gardens with flowing streams. They abide therein forever. Such is the reward for the righteous.

Does not sound like hatred to me

Your example:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

Alas How many times has this been shown to be true?

"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57

Judging from your e-tone of mockery while dodging the discrepencies that were brough up I take it we won't become the best of friends LOL

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

Last but not least, to true Christians - the Quran teaches:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

Does not sound like hatred to me. Maybe you "interpret" hatred like you "interpret" that you are "intended to put different versions of stories from the bible together"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 799486)

Quote:

By the way, why does the Koran teach men to beat their wives?

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
Qur’an 4:34

By the way, why does the bible teach Christians to beat their children?

He who spares the rod hates his son

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die

BUT: The good news is "Outdated language used to justify corporal punishment of children is set to be removed from new translations of the Christian Bible in Norway". What's a jot or tittle here and there? It has already been removed hasn't it? LOL

THE GOOD NEWS? It is not even a translation. It is a paraphrasing. Come on, know your stuff a bit better.

Quote:

Your example:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way."
Qur’an 4:15

You left out this part:

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors"

Leaving it out or not, your "holy" book tells you to beat your wives. Why do you distract attention away from the beating of wives?

Quote:

What is nice about this Surah is that unless (4) independent witnesses are found, the word of the woman is taken over the accusations of the accuser and the requirement is for the accuser to be flogged.

BUT: It could be worse for them. They could be under the laws spelled out in the bible:

And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Lev 20:10

OH even worse - if a new husband accuses his wife of not being a virgin (bible):

But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die

Or she could be a rape victim under the terms of the bible:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. Being a rape victim gets you the death penalty?

She is not a rape victim. You miss the whole point of the law. A rape victim cries out. A woman who claims rape and yet did not cry out has lied. You are looking for faults in the bible. You are not honestly reading it to learn what it actually says.

Quote:

You were saying what again about the Quran?

It teaches you to beat your wives. And you cannot justify it. Spanking children is a far cry from beating wives. And under the New Covenant there is no slaying of anybody since Christ has come and His blood can solve such errors that were not solved under law. Christians do not keep Law of Moses, anyway. But Islamics beat their wives. Find something like that in the New Testament.

Quote:

Why does the Koran promote hatred of Christians?

The Quran does not promote hatred of Christians. It promotes intolerance of those who have the words in front of them and then choose to not follow them.

Right. Christians who choose not to believe the ways of Islam, you mean.

Quote:

What the Quran says about Christians:

Also from those who said, "We are Christian," we took their covenant. But they disregarded some of the commandments given to them.

If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.
Say, "O people of the scripture, you have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."
Condemned are those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel, by the tongue of David and Jesus, the son of Mary. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.
They did not enjoin one another from committing evil. Miserable indeed is what they did.
You would see many of them allying themselves with those who disbelieve. Miserable indeed is what their hands have sent forth on behalf of their souls. GOD is angry with them and, consequently, they will abide forever in retribution.
And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."

Does not sound like this is teaching hatred to me. Perhaps you are "re-interpreting" like you did earlier with the bible.

Re-interpreting the bible? lol. And you claimed the woman who cried not was a rape victim? You do not honestly read the Bible enough to even be able to learn its truth, and you tell me I am re-interpreting the Bible? The Koran CHANGES partway through its own text!

From:

And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."

To:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

Mohammed changed his mind after the book was not even finished!

The fact is that the New Testament does not tell us to hate anyone or treat anyone badly as your Koran teaches you, even if people do not accept the Gospel. It tells us to love our enemies. Your "holy" book tells you to dislike them. Can't wiggle out of this one. Your book teaches hatred.

continued...

Quote:

Koran promotes hatred and violence.
"Why should we not believe in GOD, and in the truth that has come to us, and hope that our Lord may admit us with the righteous people?"
GOD has rewarded them for saying this; He will admit them into gardens with flowing streams. They abide therein forever. Such is the reward for the righteous.

Does not sound like hatred to me

Your example:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

Alas How many times has this been shown to be true?

Do not change the topic. Jesus told us to love our enemies and those who despitefully use us. But the Koran tells you to discard the Christians.

Quote:

"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57

Judging from your e-tone of mockery while dodging the discrepencies that were brough up I take it we won't become the best of friends LOL

I will be a friend to you any time you need me. But you are not allowed to be my friend. And that makes you my enemy in your mind. But I am told to love my enemies. :) I hate your doctrine and your teaching, but love you as a soul who needs God and the truth of Christ.

Quote:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

Last but not least, to true Christians - the Quran teaches:

True Christians? The Koran flatly targeted all Christians and said all were unjust when it simply said: "take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

Quote:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

We reject the belief of Allah. So true Christians are the ones who believe Jesus is Almighty!

Revelation 1:8 KJV I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:10-13 KJV I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (12) And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; (13) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Do you really believe we should take the New testament for what it says? Think about it. It tel.ls us that Jesus is the Almighty. Do you believe that? You reject Jesus Christ as the Almighty. Christians believe He is the Almighty. So true Christians do not believe in your Allah. Jesus is Allah if you understand Allah to be God. And you reject the thought that Jesus is God. So true Christians reject Allah, and this makes the Koran to promote an oxymoron when it tells you to appreciate true Christians who worship Allah, for there is no such thing as a Christian who accepts Allah.

Quote:

Does not sound like hatred to me. Maybe you "interpret" hatred like you "interpret" that you are "intended to put different versions of stories from the bible together"

No, just use common sense. :)

We love you, but despise your doctrine. :D

We believe many well-meaning people belong to the Islamic faith. However, we wish to note that the religion and way of life in Islam is violent and was foretold by God as so, and encourages their people to such a manner of thinking.

Genesis 16:11-12 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

FROM THE QUR'AN

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

"Walks in Islam", your Koran teaches violence. Find that in the New Testament.

ISLAM means PEACE, and you call this walking in Peace?

Walks in Islam,

Why is it that the word for BLACK, as in a Black person, in Arabic is “SLAVE”? This means that if you are a Black man, your Arab Moslem “friend” would describe you thus: “A man walked in to the store, and he was searching for you. He was a well-dressed slave, and wanted to buy some French fries.”

Sounds racist to me?

What kind of answer is this? You do better at being critical of the Quran than explaining your own bible so I suggest you stick to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 799536)

What kind of answer is that? It is common sense to put the accounts together. It's so simple, but if you look for errors you will contrive them. But it is all answered by common sense. It's like the sign over Jesus' head on the cross. Each account says something different. The truth is that we are to put all the accounts together to get the full quotation of the superscription.

Common sense says that there are multiple and different versions of the same story. They are written right there. If each version is completely different, then common sense says (3) of the (4) are incorrect. You say (I) contrived the error? I put the words as they are written directly onto the page. The error was contrived long before I picked it up. The truth is that YOU say you are to put all the accounts together, which I did, and they are different. Because of error.

THE GOOD NEWS? It is not even a translation. It is a paraphrasing. Come on, know your stuff a bit better.

Leaving it out or not, your "holy" book tells you to beat your wives. Why do you distract attention away from the beating of wives?

Leaving it out or not your "holy" book tells you to beat your children. With a rod. At least that's what it says. If it does not say that then you are free to call me a deceiver. As to the paraphrase that is word for word exactly what the verse says. Are you telling me now your "holy book" is merely a collection of paraphrases that can be interpreted based on today's wind direction?

She is not a rape victim. You miss the whole point of the law. A rape victim cries out. A woman who claims rape and yet did not cry out has lied. You are looking for faults in the bible. You are not honestly reading it to learn what it actually says.

I did not necessarily call this a fault in the bible. I only noted that the bible is no better and even stricter than the Quran regarding these activities which gives you little room to talk. You have added "a woman who claims rape and yet did not cry out has lied". If the law meant to say that I would suspect that it would have specified it. Instead, once again, you are here to add what you believe it to "imply" or "mean" (though your version is more palatable I guess)

It teaches you to beat your wives. And you cannot justify it.

I do not have to justify it. I did not write it. beat them (lightly) is a far, far cry from "beat your children with a rod and they shall not die"

Spanking children is a far cry from beating wives.

Beating children with a rod is certainly a far cry from the light punishment specified in the Quran. You, of course and naturally, added the term "spanking" to once again make the text more palatable

And under the New Covenant there is no slaying of anybody since Christ has come and His blood can solve such errors that were not solved under law. Christians do not keep Law of Moses, anyway. But Islamics beat their wives. Find something like that in the New Testament.

(laughing) only an idiot or coward beats up on his wife. Are you kidding me? Divorce is much easier in islam than it is in any other society and the Quran specifically states that mistreatment by a husband is grounds for immediate and uncontested divorce.

Right. Christians who choose not to believe the ways of Islam, you mean.

That's not what it says but again you appear to be choosing to "add" some commentary to make it "less" palatable. LOL

Re-interpreting the bible? lol. And you claimed the woman who cried not was a rape victim? You do not honestly read the Bible enough to even be able to learn its truth, and you tell me I am re-interpreting the Bible? The Koran CHANGES partway through its own text!

From:

And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."

To:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

[B]As stated, this appears to be a distinctly accurate statement and nailed christians cold. Christian loyalties appear to shift to the needs only of their pocketbooks and they would do business with Satan himself

Mohammed changed his mind after the book was not even finished!

The fact is that the New Testament does not tell us to hate anyone or treat anyone badly as your Koran teaches you, even if people do not accept the Gospel. It tells us to love our enemies. Your "holy" book tells you to dislike them. Can't wiggle out of this one. Your book teaches hatred.

I do not deny the words of my book nor do I as you say "wiggle out of them". After all I put the good and the bad, unchanged, in front of you.

continued...