Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Hey everyone, Benencasa thinks that the HEAVENS in 2 Peter 3 is "REALLY" supposed to mean the JEWISH LAW of MOSES and the EARTH is supposed to mean the Jews themselves.....

Benencasa thinks Peter was "really" saying The Jewish law and the Jews were to pass away with fervent heat(in secret code)!!!!...LOL

This is why he is twisting 2 Peter 3!!!...LOL


He thinks it is supposed to mean this....



John Owen
"On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...QP-WMzj491Ry9A

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Benencasa thinks Peter was saying this....

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the JEWISH LAW OF MOSES shall pass away with a great noise, and the JEWS shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the LAW OF MOSES being on fire shall be dissolved, and the JEWS shall melt with fervent heat?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Second Peter 3 & AD70
A Litmus Test for Hyper-Preterism?

"He sets forth the destruction of that cursed Nation and their City in those terms that Christ had done, Matt. 24. and that the Scripture doth elsewhere, Deut. 32.22,23.24. Jer. 4.23. namely as the destruction of the whole world, The heavens passing away, the elements melting, and the earth burnt up, &c. And accordingly speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, from Isa. 65.17. a new state of the Church under the Gospel among the Gentiles, when this old world of the Jews state should be dissolved." (John Lightfoot, Westminster Assembly Divine)...https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...QP-WMzj491Ry9A





WOW folks, he actually thinks Peter was saying this!!!

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

More preterist imaginary reinterpretation of the words "heaven and earth"....

Introduction

In this article we examine II Peter 3:7-13 and decide that the heavens and earth that were marked for destruction involved considerably more than merely Old Testament Judaism, Jerusalem, and the temple.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...2e7J4wR0BzqE3A

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

well, what if he is right? you can't prove he is wrong. it is a pov. what if some of it is right? and lastly, if none of it is right, how does this change a believer's walk?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

A typical preterist Bible study night....LOL....

2 Peter 3 that I judge we have overlooked perhaps a third “Heaven and Earth” looming in the background of those verses.
It appears many have failed to recognize that there have been two previous “Heavens and Earths” that have been destroyed and replaced with a third and final everlasting “Heavens and Earth”. I think a closer investigation of 2 Peter 3 will reveal this previously overlooked one which is presumably the first ”Heaven and Earth”
It seems we have been so preoccupied with refuting our partial preterist and dispensationalist brethren in utilizing 2 Peter 3 that I judge we have overlooked perhaps a third “Heaven and Earth” looming in the background of those verses.
It appears many have failed to recognize that there have been two previous “Heavens and Earths” that have been destroyed and replaced with a third and final everlasting “Heavens and Earth”. I think a closer investigation of 2 Peter 3 will reveal this previously overlooked one which is presumably the first ”Heaven and Earth”....
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...pVCGERZSYNUlnA

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

i have a question for you. Did we get a new earth and new heavens after the flood?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

The standard consensus of opinion is the apostolic Fathers(founders) died and the scoffers declare nothing has changed.

If you believe these preterist reinterpretations of 2 Peter 3, then you think that the LAST DAYS ended in 70ad, and the 2nd coming is not going to happen as a "thief in the night".

This has a big time impact on those that are waiting for the return of Jesus Christ and the sinner world observing us.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

No, the same old earth just reemerged as the water dissipated. Heaven also remained heaven.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

ok, how, other than in what you believe might have happened in the past?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

well, but Scripture says the old earth was destroyed; and the released raven tells me that the old heaven prolly was, too?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

bump

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

I'm not disagreeing. There are no wrong answers. I just want to see it verbalized. What is the impact? anyone

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

i am wracking my brain to come up with any?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

i'm not sure how a Posterist deals with Christ's "I assure you: There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

which might help to clarify this; but i suggest (don't know) that the difference might be one of mindset, and therefore not easy to verbalize--however, i see a reflection in today's brain pickings that might address this
https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/0...dweck-mindset/
even if it does not answer these questions directly. (i suspect it might)

so, pick a question:
what is the impact?
how do Posterists deal with Christ's quote?
which view, Preterist/Posterist, might you associate with which mindset in the article? if any

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

I don't want to read anything into it that's not there, but this seems to imply we're still on the first earth:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev. 21:1 KJV)

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

ya, i guess it was destroyed by water, but not yet by "fire." but i think a point is that it is dangerous to get married to an opinion, and start excluding all other opinions. If the earth "became void" at the beginning of Genesis--a valid reading--we might be on some fifth "earth," for all anyone knows--or at least third. The "elements melting" will happen when the sun goes nova, in a couple billion years or whatever.

how does a posterist interpret Christ's quote? i have no idea, and would like to know. Do you just ignore it, or what?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Sean, with all due respect, don't you think these are questions you should be able to answer, if you are going to hold the position you do? Or have i turned you Preterist? :lol

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Thank you Randy, finally a voice of sanity!

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

[QUOTE=shazeep;1392421]i'm not sure how a Posterist deals with Christ's "I assure you: There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

The kingdom Jesus spoke of arrived in Acts 2.....minus one Apostle....Judas.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Basically, only, much vegetation, land animals and mankind were destroyed. It was a partial destruction of the living things.




Peter says it will be destroyed by fire next time....Nothing will survive this intense fire....

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.....

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up......

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?





Here is the end result of the earth being burnt up....

Rev 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


The Fire of God will incinerate the old heaven and earth.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Peter said that's what happens when Jesus comes. So how can there be a literal millennium AND THEN A NEW EARTH LATER, if the earth is gone out of existence and a millennium comes between that and the new earth a thousand years later?

The same way the earth perished in Noah's day was how it perishes at Christ's coming. PEOPLE ALONE DIED, not the planet. And the PEOPLE are the point in His coming as well, NOT THE PLANET.

How do futurists use 2 Peter 3 to point to the second coming as though the whole world and planet will perish by using Noah when only the PEOPLE perished?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

[QUOTE=Sean;1392434]hmm; possible, i guess, but not very satisfying. Wouldn't that be "virtually everyone here?"

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

ya, i really don't care about the "earth" thing--i won't argue that the earth will be destroyed by fire at some point. I am most interested in the "impact" thing.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

another good question! but i mostly hate to see "answers" to these imponderables being insisted upon by lawyers, and then used as evidence to dismiss another pov.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Sean, you are a liar, and you don't care that you lie about people. You are a frustrated angry individual who has blown away everyone in the small radius around you. When people (who you once Bible studied with) see you, they keep the conversation light, and pray that they can make an exit as soon as possible. Now since you found this forum you have continually posted miles of threads showing your ability to lie about those you see as your enemy. You are a true prophet of Baal, screaming, jumping up and down, slashing yourself, as the blood gushes out, you believe that God will vindicate you, and your messed up agenda. You cut and paste because you can't for the life of you stand on your own two feet. You absolutely have no respect for yourself because you are envious, and envy is what causes a hater to pull the pin on a grenade, grab the person they are arguing with, and blow up together. You must be one miserable person in real life, and again, I pity anyone that has the great misfortune of being in any sort of church group with you. You are toast. :(

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Now, that is going to make Sean burn up his Google search engine. Imagine having this guy in a one on one debate in real life? No, internet, just a KJV Bible. He would get so livid, that he would blow an artery. :lol

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

riginally Posted by Sean View Post
Basically, only, much vegetation, land animals and mankind were destroyed. It was a partial destruction of the living things.




Peter says it will be destroyed by fire next time....Nothing will survive this intense fire....

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.....

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up......

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?





Here is the end result of the earth being burnt up....

Rev 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


The Fire of God will incinerate the old heaven and earth.QUOTE SEAN







Peter said that's what happens when Jesus comes. So how can there be a literal millennium AND THEN A NEW EARTH LATER, if the earth is gone out of existence and a millennium comes between that and the new earth a thousand years later?

The same way the earth perished in Noah's day was how it perishes at Christ's coming. PEOPLE ALONE DIED, not the planet. And the PEOPLE are the point in His coming as well, NOT THE PLANET.

How do futurists use 2 Peter 3 to point to the second coming as though the whole world and planet will perish by using Noah when only the PEOPLE perished?QUOTE MFBLUME









Mike, since you are involved and do not agree with what Peter seemingly said, please tell the viewers on AFF what Peter "REALLY" meant by this passage....

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Is this the Law, Jewish religion and the Jews being dissolved by fire?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

that seems to be a different "day of the Lord."

Mark 13 et al sure seem to indicate preterism; the chapter could be titled "What will happen in 70 AD," it seems to me. Don't we have historical evidence for...everything in it? Sans everyone seeing the Lord in the clouds, at least; which evidence just might not have survived, or been occluded. Not saying that makes me a preterist; but i certainly wouldn't be scoffing at them.

What about that "impact" thing, Sean? I have a feeling that describing this impact might clarify some things here.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

John Owen
"On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...QP-WMzj491Ry9A[/QUOTE]





Do you agree with John Owen, Mike?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

i think the present day Church might be compared to the Wandering, and we are just somewhere in the Sinai right now.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Mike, can I insert your name here too?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

When the Sun becomes a red giant star

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Mike, is this what you believe?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Mike, do you agree with these guys?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Mike, is this what you believe also?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Yes Mike, please do explain!

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

So Sean, you are going to ignore the impacts of a preterist view v a posterist one, and torture Mike lawyer style? Wadr, you are the one who brought it up.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

quite possibly, ya. Or a meteor this week, who knows. But would either of these usher in the kingdom, which i guess is the posterist view? Is a chief impact of Pre v Post denying the kingdom of God that exists right now, and pushing it to some future date?

Peter said the world perished in Noah's day. The world. That's the word he used. That word must be consistent in definition throughout the whole chapter. He did not say only life perished. He said world. So whatever he meant by world that is what we must believe the word means when we read it's destruction by fire.

It can't mean life in one verse but the planet in the next.