Apostolic Friends Forum - Proof Of Soul Sleep

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Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

MTD,

Since Paul stated what he did about absence from the body and presence with the Lord, and since you claim Paul was actually fantasizing about something impossible (which I can never accept), we will never agree on this issue. I also suggest you study what the term ETERNAL means.

I have said all that needs to be said.

God bless all!

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Michael, I wouldn't have a problem believing in "soul sleep" if I didn't know someone who was dying on thier death bed speaking in tongues and crying "hey, I see angels!" Kind of difficult to dismiss that kind of a witness; wouldn't you say?

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 580872)

Here is more proof.

When will we receive eternal life?

28: Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Mark 10:28-30

Eternal life is granted IN THE WORLD TO COME.

Guess what? That world has not yet come.

Michael,I gave you scripture before that we have eternal life now and I said before it is not compleat untill we are resurrected.

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 581182)

Mike,

A big fat lie on your part. Unbelievable.

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman (Post 581382)

We may believe what we chose I suppose. My Bible says only Jesus has immortality.

14: That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Is there a contradiction here in the word or a lack of understanding ? We have eternal life now and later.

28: Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Mark 10:28-30

John.5
[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1John.3
[14] We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 581805)

Michael,This in 1 Tim.6: was written after Jesus was resurrected and received his immortal body.He is the only one who has an immortal body at this time.Everyone when born into this world is born with a body,soul and spirit.We are born with immortal spirits and souls but not bodies.The only way a persons spirit and soul is dead is if it is cast in the lake of fire.Our spirit and soul does not die or sleep when our body dies and sleeps.Our spirits and souls are immortal now and we will receive an immortal body at the resurrection as Jesus did when he was resurrected.

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 580873)

Over and over we are told that when we die our spirit is alive in Heaven with eternal life and its only the body that will gain eternal life at the second coming.

Did Paul believe this?

1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor. 5:1-5

When will the spirit be saved? As soon as we die?

Paul says in the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS!

Michael,Being saved is the same as having eternal life.We have eternal life now and it will be compleat at the resurrection,the same with saved,we are saved now and our salvation will be compleat at the resurrection.

Do you believe Jesus words,I do as I believe Paul and understand both of them.

Luke.7
[50] And he (Jesus)said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

1Cor.15
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

2Cor.2
[15] For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 580877)

Consider what Paul told his accusers:

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Notice the HOPE Paul was living for. THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Also note:

6: But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

Again Pauls HOPE is in the resurrection of the dead.

Now to me if it were true that as soon as we die we are in the joy of Heaven THAT would be a greater hope than the resurrection! Why did Paul not preach IT (eternal life without resurrection)?

He does not even mention it in his evangelistic work!

His theme over and over is THE RESURRECTION.

Think about the foundation doctrines of Christ:

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2

Now most people certainly emphasize "eternal life at death" doctrine. Like I said if it were true it WOULD be more important than the mere resurrection of a dead human body!

Yet Paul never includes it as a FOUNDATION DOCTRINE!

Isnt that amazing?

Something that important. Possibly the most important thing of all and its not even a foundation doctrine of the Church!

Oh friends are you beginning to sense something is wrong with this doctrine?

This is the resurrection of our dead or sleeping bodies not our spirit and soul.Our spirit and soul don't die or don't sleep.

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 580878)

What stands out about these verses of scripture?

13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Three times Paul mentions THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

If you had no preconceived idea and saw this phrase them which are asleep would you assume THEM to mean people or to mean dead bodies?

Why would Paul be so concerned about dead bodies?

If Saints thought their dead loved ones were in the glory of Heaven with the thrill of eternal life why would they be sorrowing over merely their dead bodies?

Think about it a minute.

What is Paul saying to these people about their loved ones?

14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Is he not saying THEY (not their dead body) are asleep in Jesus?

And in all this he NEVER MENTIONS that THEY might be alive in Heaven!

The last thing he tells them is to comfort each other with the WORDS HE JUST WROTE. We just saw several places in the book of Acts where Paul preached THE HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION (see post 42) so what hope do you suppose Paul was referring to in verse13? Our hope is the resurrection from death.

Now have you ever been to a funeral?

Most Preachers say "our dear Brother is in Heaven in the arms of Jesus".

Are they not comforting with different words than Paul?

Look again what HE told the Saints.

And finishes:

18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

See how different Pauls words were than todays Preachers?

Truth=The dead Saints sleep in Jesus.

Yelp,sure enough,our salvation ,our eternal life will be complete at the resurrection of our dead sleeping bodies,our body will be immortal as our spirit and soul are.

It's very clear here Paul was talking about our bodies,not our spirit and soul.

1 Cor 15:[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
[37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
[41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought