Re: Does Hell make sense?
 

Good point as well!

Re: Does Hell make sense?
 

i just want to point out olam had like 30 different meanings and usage. it was the word used to try and describe a indescribable God in the old testament.

i mean how long is a age......

Re: Does Hell make sense?
 

This will be long. Before I go on, Im not sure this point is in the following several posts but when we translate words from one textual language into another, several factors go into HOW we translate. One is grammar. You can't simply look at the definition of the root word and pick which definitions. You have to consider the grammar.

The other is context. Context helps to determine how a word should be translated.

With that..what follows was my reply to CJ

Part 1

Eternal
3. The expression αἰώνιος βασιλεία (2 Pt. 1:11)6 forms a transition to the use of αἰώνιος as a term for the object of eschatological expectation: ζωὴ αἰώνιος,7 αἰώνιος κληρονομία, Hb. 9:15; αἰώνιοι σκηναί of the place of blessedness, Lk. 16:9; οἰκία αἰώνιος ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς of the heavenly body, 2 C. 5:1.8 If in such expressions αἰώνιος has the full sense of divine eternity, in τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον, Mt. 18:8; 25:41; Jd. 7 (cf. 4 Macc. 12:12), κόλασις αἰώνιος, Mt. 25:46; ὄλεθρος αἰώνιος, 2 Th. 1:9; αἰώνιον ἁμάρτημα, Mk. 3:29 (eternally unforgivable sin) it has in the first instance only the sense of “unceasing” or “endless.” But an expression like κρίμα αἰώνιον, Hb. 6:2 (cf. αἰωνίου κρίσεως, Mk. 3:29, ΑΚΜΠ) shows that here, too, it extends beyond the purely temporal meaning.
Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

67.96 ἀί̈διος, ον; αἰώνιος, ον: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time—‘eternal.’13
ἀί̈διος: ἥ τε ἀί̈διος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1:20.
αἰώνιος: βληθῆναι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18:8; τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16:26.
The most frequent use of αἰώνιος in the NT is with ζωή ‘life,’ for example, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3:15. In combination with ζωή there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αἰώνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αἰώνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.). New York: United Bible societies.

BTW do you believe the Devil and his angels will be reconciled too?
Why is it important for you to answer this question? Because "Eternal Kolasis" in the context is the EXACT same "place" that the Devil and his angels go. You have to answer "yes", but the bible says NO. Christ became a man to die FOR man, not for the devil.
Please read the next post

Part 2
 

Part 2
As I said before context determines how a word is used. AIONION is used in the same breath Jesus spoke for both Eternal Life and Eternal punishment.

But not only that the context uses AIONION again just before this

Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

This is why the question is important. Here is Aionos "fire", that is prepared for the Devil and his angels. You have to decide if this is forever or not and if not that means the Devil and his angels are reconciled to God by Jesus. The problem is the bible never says they are and it says explicitly he became a man to save man. He became one of us a kinsman redeemer. So the evidence is the Devil and his angels will not be reconciled to God...this makes the fire Eternal

This is not a mere parable. Jesus is speaking of Himself
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

The goats on the left Jesus as the King sends them into a place that was originally intended for The Devil and His angels

He divides the goats from the sheep and it's only the sheep he calls
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

The kingdom was prepared only for the sheep and the goats are cast into the Eternal Fire

He informs us that this Eternal Fire is the Eternal Punishment

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So This place, unless the Devil is to be redeemed, is an Eternal place...It's a fire that is Eternal. This proves textually, grammatically and logically that the Eternal Punishment is the same destination as the Eternal Fire. Further context determines how words are used/translated, this also proves that Aionos is being used to mean forever, time without end. To deny that is to make this verse internally contradictory OR to teach that we really do not have Eternal Life

This Separating of the goats and Sheep and the goats going into Eternal Fire reminds us of the following teaching by Jesus

Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

They are sent into Eternal Fire

Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Notice the entire tree is cut down and thrown into the fire. That is not pruning a tree. That is getting rid of the tree itself. Notice the similarity? Here He speaks to the goats, "I never knew you; Depart from me!"

Re: Does Hell make sense?
 

I don't feel it is proper, ethically or morally to talk about Hell at someone's Funeral.

Many who go to Funerals are grieving and they are confused, needing comfort, not fear in this time of loss.

As a minister, I want to leave a lasting impression of hope and forgiveness, and Funerals are an excellent opportunity to share the importance of loving your neighbor as yourself.

Part 3
 

Part 3

This "fire" shall not be quenched or put out. The word Aionos doesn't even need to be used
Jesus uses the phrase "worm dies not"
Mar 9:42 And whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in Me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Mar 9:44 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

Think about this: Jesus is telling us why it is better to go into life (Eternal Life) maimed, than to go into hell. Then Jesus says why..because it is a fire that is never quenched
Quenched is from the greek word asbestos.
It means "not to extinguished". In plain language, It is a fire that never goes out....Yes that means Eternal or ever lasting...a fire that lasts forever.

To compound the problem Jesus also says "where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched or extinguished. Jesus repeats this a few more times.

Mat 3:10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Again this is reminiscent of the other verses...the sheep or wheat are going into Life and the goats or the chaff here or the bad tree in Mat 7, are burned up with unquenchable fire. All 3 instances are in Mat. Here Mat 3, the bad tree Mat 7 and the Goats Mat 25. Now where as Mark 9 uses the phrase unquenchable fire, the parallel text in Mathew uses Eternal or Aionos fire

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

This proves to you that Eternal Fire is inextinguishable fire or a fire that is not extinguished. That proves that Mathew has in mind in chapter 23 Eternal Fire. Notice this is a recurring theme not just in Mathew. So now let's go to one more in John

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Notice the theme? Here Jesus has in mind the theme of Mathew..good branches bear fruit. Bad branches do not. Bad branches are removed from the vine, gathered together and throwin into the fire and burned. That branch is burned, not pruned.

Mathew repeats this theme again in Chapter 13

Mat 13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Here Jesus explains the parable of the seed. Notice the separation again? Here it is the good seed from the weeds. Notice the Weeds are the sons of the evil one. Notice the weeds are sown by the Devil. Notice the harvest is the close of the AION (context determines this, it cant mean eternal because eternal can't be closed or ended). The weeds or the sons of the evil one, are gathered and burned with fire...again we got FIRE, we got a seperation (goats/sheep. wheat/chaff etc etc). The angels gather OUT OF his kingdom all causes of sin and all law breakers and theyare thrown into the fiery furnace. Is this a different place than the Eternal Fire/Eternal punishment? Of course not

And finally, at the end of the Age we have

Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Here are have a particularly interesting grammatical phrase..forever and ever...in greek it's "eis tous aionos ton aionon"...this phrase is used in the following verses in Rev
Rev 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Rev 7:12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
Rev 10:6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

Kind of hard to get temporary out of eis tous aiōnas ton aiōnōn! All the gospel evidence points to this fire being a fire that won't be extinguished. It's a fire that burns up the goats/chaff/branches etc etc

In Mat it's a place prepared for the Devil and his angels. In Revelation 20 the Devil ends up in this fire first and then those not found written in the book of life go next

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

In Mat it was their "fruit" here it's their works.

This FIRE, this Punishment, is called the Second Death. Death is not a pruning. Death is dead. You don't prune dead trees!

Whatever this is, it's forever

Re: Does Hell make sense?
 

Conclusion/part 4:
The previous proves how Aionos is being used in the context to mean "without end".

Further it also helps define what Kolasis means.

The following is offered to confirm that, keep in mind that context determines how words are used.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has torment. He who fears has not been perfected in love.

Here translated as torment, fear is a bad thing here, this is not a corrective punishment at all. It's detrimental results of fear. Fear is the opposite of love

These are the only 2 times this word is found...as you might guess it is never used with regards to trimming rose bushes

† κόλασις.
“Chastisement,” “punishment,” found from the time of Hippocr. and Plato, common in Diod. S. (I, 77, 9; IV, 44, 3); Plut. (Ser. Num. Pun., 9 and 11 [II, 553 f., 555d]); Ael (Var. Hist., VII, 15); Philo (Leg. Gaj., 7; Vit. Mos., I, 96 etc.). In the LXX cf. esp. Ez. and Wis.,1 also of divine punishment in 2 Macc. 4:38: κυρίου τὴν ἀξίαν αὐτῷ κόλασιν ἀποδόντος, “the Lord has repaid him (Andronicus) with the merited punishment,” v. also 4 Macc. 8:9: δειναὶ κολάσεις, “severe punishments which precede execution.” δειναὶ κολάσεις is used in Mart. Pol., 2, 4 of the punishments and torments which martyrs had to endure, οἱ εἰς τὰ θηρία κριθέντες ὑπέμειναν δεινὰς κολάσεις. Joseph. makes frequent use of the term, e.g., of the punishment of Cain, Ant., 1, 60.

It is found only twice in the NT. Speaking to the disciples about the Last Judgment in Mt. 25:31–46, Jesus says in v. 46 that on those who have neglected the practical ethical task the sentence is pronounced: ἀπελεύσονται εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον.2
κόλασις αἰώνιος in Test. XII, Test. R. 5:5. In Apc. Pt. 21 hell is τόπος κολάσεως. κόλασις alone is used for hell in modern Gk.3
αἰώνιος κόλασις also occurs in Mart. Pol., 2, 3: τὴν αἰώνιον κόλασιν ἐξαγοράζεσθαι; 2 Cl., 6, 7: There is no salvation from eternal punishment if we are disobedient to the commands of Christ. Cf. also 1 Cl., 11, 1: God plunges gainsayers into punishment and torment, εἰς κόλασιν καὶ αἰκισμόν; Dg., 9, 2: Punishment and death are the reward of unrighteousness; Herm. s., 9, 18, 1: He who does not know God and who does wrong receives a punishment for his wickedness, ἔχει κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ.4 Ep. Ar., 208 contains the general truth that human life consists of sorrows and punishments.

Ign. in R., 5, 3 mentions among other tortures the κακαὶ κολάσεις τοῦ διαβόλου which may come over him if only he attains to Christ.
Of greater theological significance is 1 Jn. 4:18: ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει, “fear contains punishment in itself.”5 This means that the man who lives in fear (before God) is already punished by this fear. His fear is his punishment. This thought may be linked with the express statement in Jn. 3:18 that the unbeliever is judged already. The opposite of fear is love. Perfect love is free from every fear, because perfect love for God drives out fear before Him.6
Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

Re: Does Hell make sense?
 

I know that is a lot of information, sorry

Re: Does Hell make sense?
 

That's OK, now I'm more confused than ever!! :tease:lol

Re: Does Hell make sense?
 

The point to remember is, you can't just take a greek words root word and pick a definition. The word is not AION but AIONOS. That ending "os" is like taking the word believe and adding "ing" to make it believing.

So we see how grammar is involved

Second, you have to look at the context too in order to see how a word should be translated. When you consider the grammar and the context then we see aionos was rightly translated.