:lol

I love what steadfast had to say. H

Shhh!!! I am hoping with so many new visitors lurking and viewing these threads I can motivate some to actually sign up and post out of vitriolic anger at my posts.:toofunny

LOL....okay, just trying to keep things simple.

He sounds like a good shepherd. It's like when you're a parent and try to teach your children right and protect them.

I was raised in a very conservative church and I loved it! Our church was powerful. It's sad to see churches that have begun to head left.

There is one in the district I was raised in that recently built a 15 million dollar complex and then started losing people. So the pastor did what he felt he had to and had meetings with his leadership and said....you can start going to the movies now. sad.

They feel financial pressure and cave thinking that will bring more people.

Mother says she has the book by MB somewhere, called "Shadow of the Bramble."

Great book.

I'm glad you had that experience.

I'm looking back and seeing so much wrong on each side - liberal and conservative. I tend to have leanings on both sides, as many do, on various issues.

All of this "they never bashed the UPC at all" stuff is a little sick. They didn't have to. They had already delivered a crushing and painful blow by their divisive actions.
Anyone ever hear of rhetoric? Or duplicity? They are saying one thing, while something totally different is taking place. For the life of me I cannot understand this fixation some have upon what is said. They are not "bashing" the UPC, they are just carving it up, or carving out a slice for them to control. Not bashing?

Additionally, what about the flyer sent to thousands of preachers citing a "preferred" apostolic future? Preferred over whom or what? Does that not knote a certain "we are taking the right way while the others are off the path"?

We who have remained with the certainly flawed UPC certainly have a right to take affront at such statements.

Again, watch what happens, don't listen only to what is said.

I have news for Steadfast. When I was a UPC teenager I saw just as many girls from "conservative" churches who "shouted" their uncut hair down in service in the back seat of cars with guys as girls from the so called liberal churches.

I have NEVER seen strict standards translate to moral behaviour in teenagers. If anything it allows them to compartmentalize what is right and wrong since they have that long laundry list of do's and don'ts. They seem to justify in their mind that if they don't cut their hair, wear makeup, go to movies, etc, etc that they can then commit sexual sin and still come out okay on the balance ledger. Not all by any measure but enough that it proves that enforced legalistic standards have squat to do with a persons morality.

We obviously are not UPC but my kids have been raised around it and spent entire summers at UPC relaitves homes and attending UPC churches. My two boys assessment is that old time Pentecostal girls are wild. Much wilder than the baptist and charismatic girls they date.

What were you doing in the front seat watching?????

I suppose I'll have to read it now. :coffee2

I know one thing--my Daddy was never real hip on the "system" either.

My Grandpa had a conflict with Bro. Branding years back. Over a pig. :) It's quite a funny little story.

I'm sorry but that sounds absolutely ridiculous. "We need more people so you can start going to movies???"

How firsthand was the knowledge of that statement?

And really, are there churches that have set rules like "You can't go to movies?"

My pastor teaches relationship with God and doesn't feel the need to micromanage our lives. Of course, that probably makes him a liberal.

The problem is...standards alone don't save you. People have to be taught to fall in love with Jesus Christ. When you love somebody you do what pleases them. If we love HIM, we will do what pleases HIM.

Tim, thanks for sharing this history. I vaguely remember Bro. Weeks as I was a young girl and we didn't get to go to camp meeting hardly ever. I didn't realize his death was rather sudden.

I don't really believe that is what they think. I believe they are living their parent's religion and until they meet God for themselves they will continue to follow youthful lust. Not much different than a teenager in any religious or secular setting.

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

Er.....we used to all go "parking" at the same pond in my town. LOL!!!! I was, for the most part, a good boy though that didn't do the things a lot of the others were doing!

I have close friends and relatives though that have stories that are amazing!

I remember in Louisiana in the 70's there was a significanat portion of young people who reacted to the legalism by toeing the line for a few months or year or so then if they slipped up a little they would just throw in the towel and live like the devil until a youth meeting, revival, or youth camp then pray through again for yet another few months or year until they stumbled again and began to repeat the process.

I remember in particular a girl from our "moderate" church who went to live in some town where her brother was at for the summer and he attended an ultra con church. She came back condemming all the girls to hell for wearing open toed shoes, etc until she violated some little aspect of the legalism then yet once again threw in the towel and lived like the devil till the next youth camp. Ah the cycle of life.

I agree with you on this one. Pentecostal teenagers are just like every other teenager until they choose to follow Christ.

Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.

I didn't realize he pastored close enough to my church for our saints and young people to have corrupted his!

(I assumed he must be talking about some independent Oneness churches in his area that had "gone charismtaic", not UPC ones.)

My lips are sealed :happydance

That's a first! :girlyluv

:toofunny

Speak up!

:toofunny

This whole thing is unreal!
If you want to know the real deal on all of it, come west.

that's all. Y'all have a pleasant day

pianoman....

You and I think alike...they could not afford to critisize.....to do so would have brought disdain...so instead they worshipped together and felt God so it was all good...

The men who planned this are very smart and very intelligent.... but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure these things out....

Spend some time in the vicinity of some and you'll learn more than you need to know...

Remember to ask the local men around them what they feel about them...

As St. Mark said...Go West...and you'll soon figure it out.....cuz' everything that glows ain't always purty......

I personally know 5 of those guys....
one lost his church b/c of immoral actions

Randy are you really sure about this???? But Randy what is your opinion about the youth - that is, that they are more holy then other youth ???? just curious

Amen. That is how I believe it. Teach convictions instead of sheltering.

I have precevied that the Western District has it share of political drama....?:TulsaNO:

That happens in every denom... humanity will always be human... not very profound but the truth

Every successful ministry I know is appreciated more from afar than it is by those nearby.

This is virtually without exception the case.

Ho hum.

I have not read this entire thread yet, but I feel I must make a comment about this new organization (that is what it is). I think they are doomed to failure because one of the main reason for founding their organization is legislation of regulations. We cannot legislate morality, that must come from our core, based on character and our walk with God. I agree with several posters that this organization is destined to have infighting, and bickering about rules and regulations and the enforcement of said rules and regulations. If it was about revival and a move of God- that could be done within the current confines of the UPC- or as an independent. IMHO

I have a question for Steadfast and Coonskinner.

Why do you continue to support these men in this endeavor?

Why aren't you condemning them for their deceptive behavior?

I still remember (last October) when both of you claimed a new organization wasn't being formed. That you had been told it would not happen by some of the same men who are now a part of this group.

I think your integrity is in question here. Your bias is evident, and it's troubling.

You both think nothing of questioning the honesty of men who sign an affirmation statement with no intention of abiding by it.

Why then do these men get a free pass from both of you?

BTW, I think both of you are fine men, I just don't understand the blatant double standard.

Please respond sincerely, as I am tired of hearing how "great" these men are, and what a "great spirit" they all have.

I just don't buy it.

u r right but one of those guys was PUT OUT of the upc b/c of his immorality now he is with this group....

Nothing personal. I'm just waiting for an apology from both of you fine men.:happydance

I repeated what I had heard from a friend who had spoken to one of the original six.

It has been my understanding that this thing evolved somewhat from the original plans, which were the plans I first heard about.

It is entirely possible that my understanding of what I heard was flawed, or that there was some miscommunication involved between when the words were spoken and when I heard them.

I might be naive. I am admittedly biased in favor of men I love and respect and who have been a blessing to me.

But to say my appreciation for them, and my choice to believe what they say is an integrity issue for me?

I am not really following you there.

From what I understand-
It is a fellowship with no credentials. One does not have to leave behind the UPC to be a member.

Your post is troubling.

see Post #239 from Coonskinner.

I apologize for posting a mistaken understanding of what I was told by an acquaintance who spoke with one of the original six very soon after Tampa.