Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

well, the elements apparently are melted by the "fire" one, so i don't know...
might be the difference in "world" and "earth."

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

But did you notice how the bible uses ELEMENTS in the rest of the New Testament, in Galatians 4?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

no, i did not. hmm.

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Mike, what are you saying?....

It is true isnt it?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Mike, since you are involved and do not agree with what Peter seemingly said, please tell the viewers on AFF what Peter "REALLY" meant by this passage....

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Is this "really" telling us the Law(heavens), Jewish religion(elements) and the Jews(earth) are ready to dissolved by fire?





Well?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

I am saying read how ELEMENTS are used in Galatians to understand what it means in Peter, after Peter referred to the PEOPLE who perished as the WORLD in Noah's day.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Sean, if the planet earth is destroyed by fire is that the old heaven and earth passing away in Revelation 21?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Sean.

What about Isaiah 13.

Take this verse in context of the chapter.

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

The prophet is speaking here about the day of the Lord coming. Then he speaks that the sun shall be darkened.

Then he goes on to say

Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Isa 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
Isa 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

Now if the sun and the elements are literal then how could the medes still be coming to wreak havoc on this people?

Sean, you are making the mistake that dispensationalists make. You have the same problem that Nicodemus had in John 3. You are making literal and physical what is not literal and physical.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Must I assume that you guys believe this?

Indeed I must.....

Hey everyone on AFF.....Mike and Benencasa believe that Peter was saying that the Law, the Jewish religion and the Jews were ready to be destroyed by fire, not the world as we know it!!!

It was Peters' secret code that he must have been writing in this passage!!!...LOL

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

I wonder why the secret code words boys?

I am glad Paul was not as afraid of the Jews, than Jesus and Peter were, because you have Jesus(35 Heaven(temple) and earth(Jews) shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.) and Peter using secret code words for "heaven and earth".....LOLOLOL

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

The day of the Lord begins....

Revelation 20

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The conclusion.....

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



Yep. This will happen at the CONCLUSION of Peters' "Day of the Lord"!










Just like this particular conclusion of the Last Days/Church Age....16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

There is alot of debate regarding the term, "day of the Lord", so here is an objective, random post to help anyone wanting to learn about it.....




We believe there are reasons to understand the phrase as including the millennial reign:
Peter’s description of the Day of the Lord appears to include events following the Millennium (2Pe. 2Pe. 3:10-12 cf. Rev. Rev. 20:11+; Rev. 21:1+).3
The phrases this day and that day are not disconnected terms, but involve demonstrative pronouns which make little sense in the absence of any antecedent. The antecedent is seen to be the Day of the Lord (Isa. Isa. 2:12 cf. Isa. 2:20; Joel Joel 3:14 cf. Joel Joel 3:18).....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...eSAU9zHZyRtgPg

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

No, is isn't an assumption, it is called being a hateful liar.

Deal with it. :)

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

This is how I would compare 2nd Peter 3:10-12:stirpot

Isaiah 24:19
The earth is broken up, the earth is split asunder, the earth is violently shaken.

Isaiah 34:4
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Isaiah 51:6
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.

Micah 1:4
The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Elements—the component materials of the world [Wahl]. However, as "the works" in the earth are mentioned separately from "the earth," so it is likely by "elements," mentioned after "the heavens," are meant "the works therein," namely, the sun, moon, and stars (as Theophilus of Antioch [p. 22, 148, 228]; and Justin Martyr [Apology, 2.44], use the word "elements"): these, as at creation, so in the destruction of the world, are mentioned [Bengel]. But as "elements" is not so used in Scripture Greek, perhaps it refers to the component materials of "the heavens," including the heavenly bodies; it clearly belongs to the former clause, "the heavens," not to the following, "the earth," etc.

melt—be dissolved, as in 2Pe 3:11.

the works … therein—of nature and of art.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Micah was prophesying judgement against Judea by the forces of Sennacherib in 701 B.C.. Also Isaiah 24-27 is just a short time before the attack by Sennacherib, on Jerusalem in 701 B.C. Isaiah 37:21 is the Prophet Isaiah promising Hezekiah concerning the coming destruction of Sennacherib and his armies. No mountains literally melted, stars never fell (which some are 10 times larger than our own star which we call the sun) the solar system didn't roll up. Both prophets are speaking about the same events. Events which concerned literal wars, and the destruction of capitals, one being Samaria the capital of northern kingdom of Israel.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Aaaah, A voice of reason. Praise God for Bro. Perez!

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Referring to first principles, not the sun, moon, and stars.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

And then tomorrow I could be ran over by a bus & it doesn't matter what I believed about marks, beasts, elements, timelines, chips, or scoffing. Good grief. I've enjoyed life much better since I stopped guessing how it would end & just lived it the best I can.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

amen.

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A voice of reason? People read things like stars falling from the sky, mountains melting etc, and never go on to read how those things came to pass, as EB has shown.
You have to ask yourself, what would be the reason for God to have a prophet declare these words to people thousands of years ago if it did not have any meaning to them in that time?
That is like saying God does not speak to his people today. When Peter quoted Joel in Acts 2, he said all those things were happening, including the sun being darkened and moon turned to blood, not some two thousand years in the future.
Futurism reminds me of people that believe the earth is flat and believe in conspiracy theories, like we never walked on the moon. Because someone has taken a verse out of context that seems to speak of the world melting, without studying how that prophecy actually came to pass.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

exactly.

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these are difficult to find, though--they really aren't in Scripture, that i am aware of--which seems weird, come to think of it, if most of the NT was not established until after that. I can't recall any extra-Canon that mentions it, either. Do you have any links for an overview of prophecy fulfilled in 70 ad? Ty

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Loren, forget :dogpat....LOL

Maybe you will be courteous enough to answer this question for the preterists?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

John Owen
"On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...QP-WMzj491Ry9A




Loren, do you teach what John Owen believed too?(regarding 2 Peter 3)

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

That is a lame post!

Didn't you know that God prophesied about the Messiah in the garden of Eden. When you read that you probably said " how dare God prophesy something that didn't relate to their day "

Ever heard of Joel 2:28
Or Isaiah 9:6?

Prophecy is not always something that is fulfilled immediately.

Sometimes it takes a while.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

That's not what he is saying, when Isaiah was in the court of Judean kings he was warning them concerning their enemies the Assyrians. When Isaiah prophesies in Isaiah 19:1 against Egypt, the prophet speaks of God coming on a swift cloud against Egypt, and that the idols of Egypt will run away at His presence while the Egyptians melt with fear. Psalm 104:3 speaks of God's chariots being clouds and that the wind actually has wings. Yet, in Isaiah 20:1-3 is another warning of what was prophesied in Isaiah 19:1. Let's not muddy the waters by having a misunderstanding of what the prophets were trying to say to Israel as a warnings. They were warning the kings, and those warnings would be fulfilled just in a short amount of time.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Check it out carnal,

I understand A.

All I was doing is showing that the warning was given and the lord performed. And in reference to elements, The definition still stands.

And your boy assembliesofgodsdrummer he's weak bro.

trucha

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

I don't have a "boy" sir.

I notice you said that GD, was "weak" would you care to explain how his offering was "weak?" GD's post is asking why people misinterpret the signs of sun, moon and stars? How can that be called weak? It can only be addressed by someone proving that the Bible writers intended to mean that stars (some 10 times larger than our own sun) were to fall to the planet earth.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Many read the scriptures and take their words very literally: and they are to be
taken literally...as an historical book. But the Bible is more than historical: there
is a SPIRIT in the words of scripture that also gives life! "...They are Spirit, and they
are life." The "stars will no more fall to the earth, as we could be drawn to them.
Being much larger, they would be denser and have a stronger gravity. Therefore,
the "stars" are they that shone (were saved) and lost their way. It is also speaking
of the coming apostasy, which has already begun!

"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and
they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Waking up everyone in the house ROFL!

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Do you believe the words of Christ? Too many times we take passages like,
Mat_5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. And think it is taking about just the commandments of the law, but Jesus said he came to fulfill the prophets too. That means that Christ coming was (would be) the fulfillment of the prophecies too.

What do you think Christ meant by the words "all the law and prophets prophesied till John"? Do you think Christ meant only some of the prophets prophesied till John?
We can start by reading scripture that tell us that the prophets of the OT pointed to Christ and believe that, then study history to see how they came to pass.
No it is not easy but it is there if one takes time to search it out instead of believing the fairy tales of the teaching of some that would have us believe they were not fulfilled based on elementary reading things like the sun and turning moon turning to blood and saying well that did not literally happened there for this prophesy did not come to pass.

Sean has taken up page after page of posting OT prophesies saying they have not come to pass literally, therefore pushing them off into a indefinable future.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Both of those verses were fulfilled with the coming of Christ, as Peter stated in Acts 2, that Joel was being fulfilled right then.

And a couple hundred years is a lot different than 2000 years and counting!!!

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How long did this one take to come to pass?

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I have some very important tests I'll be taking over the next couple days and a Graduation to attend. I will not be able to respond.
Ps.
I meant no harm just joking with EB.

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Thank for NOT answering my post Loren.

I will then assume you believe 2 Peter 3 is speaking of the annihilation of the Law, the Jewish religion and the Jews, right?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Loren this is a fact also?

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Secret Apostolic Codes...Hey, that will make an amazing book title!....LOL

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No problem.

As for Genesis 3:5 I posted how I see it. Not speaking of Christ rather speaking of our individual battle with the adversary that is on going from the beginning.

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You can take it any way you like, you will anyway. The question has been answered already on other areas of this forum why keep asking the same questions?

Re: Scoffers on AFF
 

Because Mike and Benencasa will not answer it. You however are a straight shooter and are not worried about what folks think, regarding what you believe(which I admire).