Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

heh! You said, "technical"... heh!

It is interesting to argue this from a dispensational or even anti-Dispensational point of view. But what if dispensationalism had never been invented?

My only point in arguing here is to say that anyone who was ever "saved" from anything was saved by the grace of God. Remember, even Noah was "saved" by grace (Genesis 6:8). "Oh," you say (well not "you" but "they"), Noah was "saved" by building the ark! Works!

Not so, at least I don't think so. Where does it say that Noah was "saved" by that boat? 1 Peter 3:20-21 says that it was the "longsuffering of God that waited..." and then attributes Noah's salvation not to the boat, but to the flood. The "eight souls" were "saved by water..."

Ah, ha! Water "saves" us? No, for Peter tortuously goes on to say that the obvious effects of the water are in fact meaningless. What ultimately saves us in Peter's view is the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21).

So after all of that, I would say that the thief was "saved" by the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his faith in that event. The thief himself said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom..."

The Dispy style arguments, in my view, fail here. What ultimately matters was that the thief had faith in Jesus Christ, and the fact that Jesus Himself was able to prove Himself faithful.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Does that mean Jesus' death on the cross and the blood He shed for us was without effect as well without the resurrection?

1Cor 15:13-17 .....and if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain, ye are yet in your sins.

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The fact that Christ rose from the dead doesn't take away from the salvific nature of water baptism but reinforces it!

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Jesus being God manifest in human flesh could forgive sins,but if I understand correctly the resurrection and ascension of Jesus bodily had to occur before the new covenant could be instituted because the Holy Spirit had to be given for personal regeneration.I understand the Holy Spirit according to John 7:37,38,39 was not given till after the ascension.
Of course a question we must settle is when did the Christian church begin ?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I think I've given my views on dispensationalsm in an earlier post.

This is lesson 4 from the Pentecostal Bible Study Course. It is called Seven Ages. In the old Oneness Pentecostal Correspondence Course which this replaced, this lesson was called The Seven Dispensations. It is my understanding that at one time this course was required reading for those who had not gone to Bible school but were applying for ministerial papers with the UPC.


Lesson 4
Seven Ages

I. Human Innocence
This age began at the creation of man and extended until Adam and Eve yielded to the voice
of the tempter and sinned (Genesis 3:6). During this time, they were sinless, not even having the
knowledge of good and evil.
The age of innocence, like the others, ended in judgment. In this instance, God drove Adam
and Eve from the Garden of Eden. This judgment included God cursing the ground with thorns
and thistles and making people earn their bread by the sweat of their brows (Genesis 3:17-19).
Death, which was unheard of before, now entered the world and passed on to all humanity.

II. Conscience
This age extended from the fall of humanity until Noah’s flood. God gave humans a conscience,
which is an instinctive knowledge of good and evil. Without the written Word of God, people
relied primarily on conscience to govern their behavior.
During this period, human wickedness became so great that God “repented . . . that he had
made man” and ended this age with the judgment of the great flood.

III. Human Government
This age covered the time between the flood and the building of the Tower of Babel. Since it
appears that God did not govern humanity directly through prophets or priests during this time,
we can call this period the age of human government.
This age ended when God thwarted the building of the Tower of Babel, confused mankind’s
languages, and scattered the people across the face of the earth (Genesis 11:7-8).

IV. Promise
During this period, we read of God’s promises, by which God led His people. We note especially
God’s promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (See Galatians 3:16.)
This age ended when the Egyptians enslaved the Israelites. Canaan was the land of promise,
and trouble was inevitable when they left the land God had given them to settle in Egypt. Similarly,
we Spirit-filled Christians dwell in the “land of promise,” and if we are not continually led by the
Spirit, we will be enslaved by Satan.

V. Law
The law covered the time from God giving the law to Moses until the crucifixion of Christ.
During this time, Israel was governed by the old covenant.
At the end of this period, judgment fell upon Christ, thus ending the old covenant, or the law.
Christ, who knew no sin, became sin for us, taking upon Himself the penalty that belonged to
those who had transgressed the law. “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every
one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6). (See
Romans 5:6; Hebrews 9:28; I Peter 2:24.)

VI. Grace
We are now living in the age of grace. It extends from the Day of Pentecost, when the new
covenant church began and when the full message of grace was first preached, until the second
coming of our Lord. We are saved by grace and not by works. “For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast”
(Ephesians 2:8-9). (See Romans 11:6.)
Judgment will fall on the earth at the close of the church age, or age of grace, during the
Tribulation. “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world
to this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24:21). (See Luke 21:25-28.)

VII. The Kingdom
This is the period of a thousand years called the Millennium that will follow the second coming
of the Lord in the clouds (I Thessalonians 4:16-17). (See Revelation 20:5.) During the
Millennium, Jesus will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. “The government shall be upon
his shoulder” (Isaiah 9:6), and righteousness shall cover the earth as waters cover the sea. “And
the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one”
(Zechariah 14:9). (See II Timothy 2:12; Isaiah 65:18-25; Jeremiah 31:34.)
This age shall end with the Great White Throne judgment: “Because he hath appointed a day,
in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained” (Acts
17:31). “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). (See
Revelation 20:12.)

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

These diagrams show the 7 dispensations as usually taught.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Why did the Thief ask Jesus to remember him "WHEN HE CAME INTO HIS KINGDOM, if the kingdom of God was already there, as some have surmised?


The Kingdom of God was established at Pentecost. This "Feast of Weeks" was viewed by many Jews as the conclusion of the Passover celebration. It is also to be noted that many Jews believe that God gave Moses the Law during this "Feast". If that be the case, then as a glove in a hand the old and new show unity. God revealed His glory to Moses on Mt Sinai. God revealed His glory (Holy Ghost) in his Church upon Mt Zion. God wrote the old upon tables of stone with His finger, he wrote the new upon the hearts of his people with His spirit.

Just some thoughts

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

So the Resurrection actually reinforces the salvific nature of water baptism?

It's a subset ... ? His resurrection gives support/assists water baptism saving me?

Mizzy?

Tangentially, Isn't baptism ... the burial in re-enactment theology???

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I believe Matt is talking about types and shadows in the old covenant that bear a striking resemblance to the new covenant.

God is amazing in that respect. How He sets into array figures of things to come. Does God do anything on a whim?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I know folks like to put everything in one box but sometimes things can be more than one thing. Baptism is first and foremost for the remission of sins and then our participation in the gospel of Christ (specifically the burial), part of the new birth, and a Spiritual circumsicion, and baptism INTO Christ or into the body of Christ. There's probably more that can be gleaned from the OT tabernacle but I'm not very knowledgable about the tabernacle types.

Without the resurrection, if only Christ died, in 1Cor 15, Paul says we would still be in our sins. And our being baptized for the dead and judgement would be of no effect except the dead RISE. But because Christ rose from the dead, we will rise also with assurity that His work on the cross is salvific.