His spoken word is His law. What I'm trying to get you to see here is that God's law is not limited to the Law of Moses. Even if you want to claim that only the New Testament applies to you, fornication is any sexual activity (including one's thoughts) that occur outside of opposite-sex marriage. Further, any time you look lustfully at another man, you have already committed adultery with him in your heart. Where you are condemned in the New Testament is in your fornication and your adulterous heart. The fact that Romans 1 lists homosexual behavior among a whole host of other sins also condemns you. Further, since homosexuality is referred to in Romans 1 as a "vile affection," your homosexual attraction is condemned at the very least as being something contrary to God's created design. In addition, the New Testament tells us that homosexuals (more literally, men who sexually cohabit with men) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Answer some questions for me:

1. Do you acknowledge that God created male and female?

2. Do you acknowledge that opposite-sex marriage (the covenant relationship, not some ceremony), by which I mean opposite-sex mating (which includes the sexual/romantic relationship, not merely procreation), is God's created design for male and female?

3. Do you acknowledge that when God created male and female (referring to the first two humans), He did not create them with homosexual attraction (orientation)?

4. Do you acknowledge that homosexual attraction did not exist in the Garden of Eden and, therefore, that it came to exist subsequent to Adam's sin?

4. Do you acknowledge that Jesus equated the lustful thought with adultery?

5. Do you acknowledge that all sexual activity (including the thoughts) outside of opposite-sex marriage is fornication and, therefore, sin?

Harlotry is any sexual activity outside of opposite-sex marriage.



God's created design for male and female.



Yes. They need to be healed because their condition is contrary to God's created design. They must repent if they choose to rebel against God's created design by embracing their intersexed state and claiming it is God's created design. Of course, you are presenting a red herring* here since being born "intersexed" (for those who don't know what that is, it's being born with both male and female sexual organs) has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual/romantic attraction.



*something that distracts attention from the real issue

cat·a·mite /ˈkætəˌmaɪt/ Pronunciation Key
Pronunciation[kat-uh-mahyt]
–noun
a boy or youth who is in a sexual relationship with a man.

Thank you.

Ever wonder why Jesus told one thief he was going to be with him in paradise but not the other? Ever wonder why Jesus begged the Father to forgive them that crucified him but not the thief who mocked Jesus?

That people are born with birth defects (which hermaphroditism is) is contrary to God's created design. God allows such things to happen because such things are part of the damage that Adam's sin caused to the whole of Creation. Sexual/romantic attraction (heterosexual, homosexual or otherwise) is not something with which one is born; it develops during childhood. The point, of course, is that just because something exists that is contrary to God's created design doesn't give us the right to embrace it, celebrate it, be identified by it, etc.

The word that 1 Corinthians 6:10 uses for homosexual isn't the one translated "effeminate" but the one translated in the KJV as "abusers of themselves with mankind." The Greek word (arsenokoites) is a compound word that combines "male" with a euphemism for sexual cohabitation. Thus, the word is most literally translated "men who sexually cohabit with men."

Mankind was NOT created a-sexual, as some of God's creatures were. God's created sexual design for humans is clearly seen in their anatomy. This is not rocket science. I am not going to get into a part "A" fits part "B" discussion here, but it does not take someone with a special understanding to figure this out. This is an argument from design and cannot be ignored.

God in His infinite wisdom did things the way He did for a reason. His reason! All the explaining in the world cannot change God's created design...all the excuses in the world will not change God's created design.

It is the way He made them in the beginning...it is the way they remain. Therefore, any other way IS unnatural and by the very nature of the word is perverted.

The animals weren't created for Adam. And yes, God did make both male and female animals..one for the other. Animals weren't meant by God to be sufficient for Adam. He was put over the animals...superior to them, not equal.

The Bible doesn't say that Adam desired a help meet as you claim but that God said:

Gen. 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

It was God's will that man have a help meet, not man's will.

Bringing in chromosomal anomalies which are rare isn't an excuse for you to practice homosexuality. Even hermaphrodites, who possess the genitalia of both sexes prefer one or the other, depending on their genetic makeup that determines if they are masculine or feminine.

Is there one, just one, place in the bible where God speaks of the institution of Marriage as being between a man, and a man??

The homosexual issue is, imho, something that not only underminds Gods design of male and female, but in the process corrupts the relationship of Christ and his Bride.


The fact that procreation happens between a male and female is enough to know that God designed man to be with woman, and not with another man.

The Ten Commandments, while part of the Jewish law, aren't only for the Jews since they are mentioned elsewhere.

Homosexuality wasn't exclusively a Jewish law. Entire cities were destroyed for that sin whose inhabitants weren't Jewish.

Where did you get your statistic from?

Thanks, Chan. This isn't an area I'm familiar with so I just try and do the best I can.

I appreciate your help though. :)

I am still wondering what Laws got wrote on our hearts? Even if we say it is the Law of Love, Love will cause you to please God and keep his commandments. So while we may not be directly under the Law of the OT, we are under the Law of love, which will cause us to practice the rejection of the sins that the Law revealed to us.

Well, no, Sodom and Gomorrah weren't destroyed for homosexuality, they were destroyed because of several different things that were symptomatic of those cities being "were wicked, great sinners against the LORD" (Genesis 13:13, though that was specifically said about Sodom and not the other cities of the plain). Those several different things are listed in Ezekiel 16:48-50 and, while homosexuality may very well have been among the abominations the people committed, there is nothing in scripture that says God destroyed those cities simply because the people in them were homosexuals engaging in homosexual sin.

Ezekiels lists pride fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness, etc. as her sin. But it also says she "committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good".

It does not say what the abomination was. I guess it is just common thought that it must have been their homosexual activities due to the story of Lots exit of the city.

I acknowledge that...
"God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." [Genesis 1:27]

"God said, it is not good that man should be alone; i will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field...and brought them to Adam...but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him." [Genesis 2:18-20]

Because no help meet was found from the beast of the field that "the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept...the Lord god had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." [Genesis 2:21-22].

I acknowledge that...
A covenant relationship between male and female is acceptable in God's sight but I do not believe He divinely designed it as the only possible covenant relationship.

"Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul." [I Samuel 18:3]

"Saul said to David, thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain (twice)...And Saul gave him (David) Michal his daughter to wife." [I Samuel 18:20,21]

"Jonathan made a covenant with the house of Daivd...because he loved hiim: for he loved him as he loved his own soul." [I Samuel 20:16,17]

David said of Jonathan, "thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." [II Samuel 1:26]

I cannot say with certainty what the orientation of Adam and Eve were but I would agree that they were attracted to each other which would indicate their orientation was heterosexual in nature.

I think I would be comfortable acknowledging this to be true. I would point out, however, that many things that did not exist prior to Adam's fall and that those things are not sinful because they are the result of his fall.

I acknowledge that...
Matthew's account of Christ's teachings suggests that if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart then he has comitted adultery (Matt 5:28).

"When lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:15)

I acknowledge that...

Fornication, as defined by Strong's (NT:4202), means: as harlotry (including adultery and incest); and figuratively as idolatry.

And for about 9000 years it was referred to as "a sodomite" for no real reason?

Regardless, the point is that just because Jewish law mentioned sin doesn't mean it was exclusively for Jews. The Jewish law didn't even exist in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah, but something had to be said by God for those people to be judged for their sins.

And since Jewish laws didn't exist in that day, it can be safely assumed that they weren't destroyed for wearing wool and linen together or eating shellfish.

Okay, that's a start. Now, notice that God brought a woman to Adam and not a man.



Since it was a woman that God brought to Adam and not a man, isn't that at least suggestive that this was God's created design for male and female? Further, what about what Jesus said in Mark 10:6-8 where he quoted from Genesis? "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh." This is the institution of marriage and it is an opposite-sex marriage. The phrase "for this cause" (being quoted from Genesis 2:24) refers back to Genesis 2:23 where Adam said after being given the woman, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

As for your attempt to interpret the relationship between Jonathan and David as a homosexual one, you really don't want to go there. Even if you could make that argument, you have to admit that it is still contrary to God's created design for male and female as told to us in Genesis 2 and as affirmed by Jesus in Mark 10. Further, not all covenant relationships are marriages.


Would it be easier for you if we very narrowly defined "orientation" as the gender object of sexual/romantic attraction?



That's true but in separating out homosexual attraction from homosexual sin, let's be clear that the attraction is still contrary to God's created design for male and female.



So, whenever you look at another man lustfully, you are committing adultery with him in your heart.



So, how would you classify sexual activity outside of opposite-sex marriage, e.g. an unmarried heterosexual couple shacking up together and having sex?

I certainly hope you are not suggesting that David and Jonathan had a sexual relationship or even an intimate one.

Which tells us that God has other laws besides those He gave to Moses on Mount Sinai.

I believe that is what he is suggesting. When I was preaching gay theology, I suggested even worse.

I didn't see what you stated, but here are quotes from that site.

Your 1:100 stat that you quoted wasn't accurate, as seen by the above stats.

Oh boy....

Earth did not exist for 9000 years. "Sodomite" is an English word and English has not existed as a language for that long. Further, you will not find that the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament for "sodomite" has any reference whatsoever to Sodom or the people of Sodom.

I agree, and I believe that those laws apply to use today.

That is one of the points I've been trying to get Brad to see.

I'm hoping you can help him. You have skills in this area that I lack, so I don't think I'm much of a help here.

I talked about it here...

http://www.amazon.com/Pure-As-He-Str...7709873&sr=8-1

Blindness is not God's will. Homosexuality is not God's will. One is a sin and one is not. Both are not God's will. Let's not be unreasonable.

Unreasonable is thinking that Gods will won't be done. If God didnt want them blind, then they would not be blind!

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Job 42:2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

I pasted the entire stat quote. Pasting the entire page wasn't necessary.

The stat is in there, but not referring to what you said it was referring to. Read the quote. The 1:100 stat is near the bottom.

I apologize, I did not see that you had it listed. However, my point still stands as correct. 1:100 births the childs chromosomal sex does not match it's genitalia.

I'm not sure I see where my stats were inaccurately quoted. My point was that genitalia and chromosomal sex do not always line up according to God's original creation. Whether the stat is 1:100 or 1:10000 doesn't change my point (though the 1:100 stat is accurate).

You mean this is right even though the proof you presented is flawed.

Why?

Proof presented as wrong does not make your stat right?

:telephone

Excuses may not change God's created design but nature has. Once again I ask the question that everyone is avoiding. Who is the hermaphrodite biblically allowed to be in a relationship with? Hermaphroditism is not an excuse; it is an anatomical deviation from God's original creation or, as ManOfWord stated, an anatomic deviation from "A's" and "B's" of God's initial design.

I'm not sure I follow. 1:100 people's genitals deviate from the norm for their chromosomal sex. Again, regardless of what the actually number is, only a 0:0 would disprove my point.

haha, that is not what I meant by God's will. I should have said "being right with God while in such a state". I meant that being in a certain state, and due to that position, one is not right with God. Of course, Gods will is always done.

The reason I said "WILL" is due to the reasoning that when one is blinded by God, God put them in a state that is not His best for them. Punishment is not what God wills for His people who are righteous and not worthy of punishment. In other words, when I say it is "not God's will", I mean that He does not will for those whom He blesses to be blinded by Him. God did not create man to be blinded. He did not create man to be homosexual. There is something that puts them out of His will in regards to the state He wills for man to be in righteous standing, although He wills for them to be blinded as a form of punishment.

His ultimate will is man be unpunished. So He wills that man not be homosexual.