If that is true that is an astounding statistic. It seems like I heard it mentioned once before but I don't remember where. Might have been AFF.

Do you know where that comes from? Is it credible or a Thadism?

If wealth and popularity is a sign of God's blessing then all the gansta rappers that simulate sex in their videos are VERY blessed....

Anyone that believes popularity and wealth is a sign of God's favor, sans the biblical signs and fruits, is deceived in my opinion.

Having said that I am not saying or referring to any specific person, but I will ask, why can't they make a career out of singing and doing Christian songs, even if it means appearing on TBN when Apostolic business people or laity can work for sinners or make business deals with non-Apostolics?

Teaching what? What are your qualifications? Is this on TV?

Yes, but let's also remember that wealth was to establish HIS covenant, not our personal kingdoms.

PP,

The AS was engineered by Paul Price, L.E. Westburg, and David Gray.

I only met Brother Gray once, and didn't know him personally, but knew Brother Westburg very well, and still talk to Paul Price at least once a month, sometimes more.

The primary reason for the AS was the strengthening of the New Birth message, because there were men like Mickey Friend and his ilk that did not believe it.

I spoke with these men at length.

Teaching whatever I want to teach.... bible stuff...

Buck Like a Mule: Shockamoo in 12 lessons

The Art of Hand Laying

Are you referring to TBN fundraisers where some guy (or gal) preaches from a scripture verse and then promises if you sow a seed of X dollars (corrosponding with the scripture number) you will reap a harvest and that it is a spiritual law?

Those things turn me off like nothing else can. I do have a problem with any person that appears in those things for the purpose of promoting that false propserity doctrine Apostolic, Ex-Apostolic or not.

The false doctrine there too is grave. They really believe that if they preach it, God will back it up. If you prophesy, God HAS to do it...so prophesy is no longer what God says through you or to you to tell someone else. Prophesy is what you declare out of your own will or desires and God is obligated to do it.

Has to make you wonder if they spend much time prayingl, interceding or asking for things when all they have to do is just speak it into existence

Why would someone offer you money to do this? What are your qualifications? To whom will you be teaching? Is this on TV or audio? Whose network is this? sounds kinda fishy

He has been very moody ... bordering on hormonal.

I was just asking simple questions and making an observation. Obviously I was correct and you are having a fit for some odd reason.

Is this David F. Gray? He was a former PCI official ... was he Water and Spirit?

@gmail ???? I don't see it ...

naw.. hotmail

I don't have a hotmail account ... I have an msn.com one ....

that may be it.. let me get back to you

yeah.. the msn account..

:laffatu

:trashcan

From my knowledge, he was water and spirit.

DG was pretty conservative

Again, I have no problem signing a document that affirms my belief in the New Birth message. However, I do think the AS has been used for reasons other than that.

It has been used to mandate the teaching of a particular code of conduct.

Whatever it may have been used for, that was the original intent.

Does anyone know of a single person who has ever lost their license because they weren't preaching standards to suit a district board?

I personally do not.

I think you would be hard pressed to come up with many, if any.

I know men all over who don't teach standards anywhere near even a moderate stance, and they receive no flack whatsoever.

No way!!!! Not in the UPC! Don't you know they are trying to run all of the non-UC's out of the camp? They've been doing it for years. :bubble

They made an insulting remark about the Name of Jesus not this Campbellite view he is espousing now.

Do NOT confuse anyone with the facts.

Yes he was a water and Spirit though he was PCI and so was Haney his brother-in-law however I think they believed some form of "light doctrine."
Reformed Dave can answer this he has before but I am sure I am correct. There were PCI men that believed the new birth message.

Why is that it only quotes Acts 2:38 and according to you and the Baptist think for can be interpeted "because of?" Now you are incorrect but if someone had interpeted in that manner then what would be the objection??

C.M. Becton was raised PCI, but was never taught what is called "the PCI doctrine."

He said that even in the PCI, the majority of men were strong on the New Birth message.

He told me that the "saved at repentance" view was primarily a regional thing, in New Brunswick, Tennesse, and north Mississippi.

I know a man who turned his own father-in-law in and had his license taken over standards. This would not have been possible without the AS.

I am sure that made for some interesting family gatherings at Thanksgiving and Christmas!!!

Did he steal the FIL's church as the icing on the cake?

Your forgot to add either Washington or Oregon, whichever one the Yadon's were at.

I would agree with C.M's assessment with that one modification. Based on what I know and have read I think what we call the PCI view was a minority view within the PCI. How big of a minority we don't know. I have never seen any stats as to how many preachers were licensed with the PCI at the time of the merger or where they were located at.

An old preacher I knew now deceased, used to say, "When I fly over Idaho I can smell them liberals down there...":killinme

No it was NOT an minority it was widespread in the PCI particularly in much of the leadership. However there were some men that did believe the new birth. Parts of Missiouri, Arkansas, N. Miss., W. Tn. were heavy saved at repentance. And leaders such as Goss, Yadon, Gurley were PCI men.

I agree.

He didn't mention the northwest, perhaps because the numbers were a lot lower out there.

The Yadons did believe that way, but I don't know how many others did.

You certainly would have a better knowledge of this than I would.

I was only repeating Elder Becton's opinion.

I think that what is interesting and also telling is the number of PCI belief men who have been involved in the top tier of leadership in the UPCI over the years.

I agree with Bro. Epley. I think the numbers of men who were PCI are higher than what many think because as the point has been made many times you would never have known. We all preached with the same emphasis overall.

People tend to view things from their own perspective so those from certain areas in the south might think the percentage was low but we had the advantage of traveling all over the fellowship and fellowshipping with those from WEC as well.

You talk around the table in fellowship and you talk while travelling together and you talk while visiting with people in their homes. You talk, you share, and you "learn". ;) :)

If the so called PCI view men were in great numbers they sure did a disasterours job of doctrinal teaching to those they mentored since their view is virtually gone from the UPC.

If their intent was to not be contentious they were such pacifists about their view that it pretty much died with them with a very few exceptions.