Apostolic Friends Forum - Tulsa Report Day 2

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Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 372618)

Here you have it--he is STILL denying the truth of Steadfast's testimony regarding an individual situation he has knowledge of.

I read the above posts as well, and thanks for the responses.

Concerning your "here you have it..." I am puzzled when you cry "Eureka!" over the nugget I've been waving in the air since last night.

Just as Steadfast's clarification was needed to clear up the uncomfortable issue of the sexual "orientation" involved in his accusation, I feel that he can clear up a bit more and probably even get that unfortunate UPC pastor off the hook down in Texas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 372618)

Still going to maintain he isn't questioning his honesty?

Are you still going to maintain that his accusation wasn't a smear of the UPC? He brought up these issues to explain his sympathy for the Tulsa men being "almost pushed out" of the UPC.

Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

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I really 'membered you when you drink my wine

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I seen you walkin' down in Chinatown
I called you but you could not look around

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I see you standing in it every time

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The color of your skin don't matter to me
As long as we can live in harmony

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I'd kinda like to be the President
so I can show you how your money's spent

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Sometimes I don't speak too bright
but yet I know what I'm talking about

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Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 372626)

I read the above posts as well, and thanks for the responses.

Concerning your "here you have it..." I am puzzled when you cry "Eureka!" over the nugget I've been waving in the air since last night.

Just a Steadfast's clarification was needed to clear up the uncomfortable issue of the sexual "orientation" involved in his accusation, I feel that he can clear up a bit more and probably even get that unfortunate UPC pastor off the hook down in Texas.

Are you still going to maintain that his accusation wasn't a smear of the UPC? He brought up these issues to explain his sympathy for the Tulsa men being "almost pushed out" of the UPC.

He cited the instance in question as an explanation for the kind of things that cause some men in some locales to seek out alternatives for fellowship.

I fail to see how that smears the entire UPC.

Let's see...we have two accusations:

1.Someone spoke negatively of the UPC.

If we are going to crucify everybody on this site that does this, we are going to be needing a lot of crosses. You yourself have roundly criticized the organization. Steadfast cited a couple of anecdotal incidents of which he has personal knowledge--and you try and spin that into "He smeared the UPC."

As if that had ever been a rarity around here anyway...

2.Steadfast has reported something that did not happen. Where I come from we call that lying. He isn't saying "I heard..."; he is telling us what he knows.

Your first accusation is unfounded, and minor anyway.

But when you continue to insist that he isn't telling the truth, that is more serious.

Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 372626)

I pointed out the "Eureka" because your defenders are insisting that you are not questioning the veracity of his report.

They seem to think that you withdrew the accusation of untruth when he clarified that it was fornication he spoke of instead of homosexuality.

This is obviously not the case.

You just continue to say it isn't true.

Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Since we are Pentecostal, we need more than one song. Let's join FRIENDS as they sing and play "I'll Be There For You."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQJsPGD1t0gI

Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 372631)

He cited the instance in question as an explanation for the kind of things that cause some men in some locales to seek out alternatives for fellowship.

I fail to see how that smears the entire UPC.

Let's see...we have two accusations:

1.Someone spoke negatively of the UPC.

If we are going to crucify everybody on this site that does this, we are going to be needing a lot of crosses. You yourself have roundly criticized the prganization. Steadfast cited a couple of anecdotal incidents of which he has personal knowledge--and you try and spin that into "He smeared the UPC."

As if that had ever been a rarity around here anyway...

2.Steadfast has reported something that did not happen. Where I come from we call that lying. He isn't saying "I heard..."; he is telling us what he knows.

Your first accusation is unfounded, and minor anyway.

But when you continue to insist that he isn't telling the truth, that is more serious.

In our courts of law there are charges that can be made of lesser or greater severity. This arrangement is needed for us to even begin to attempt to dispense justice in our courts.

A jury may hear a case where a man is charged with "murder in the 1st degree." However, in the course of the trial they may hear testimony and see evidence that makes them question the severity of the charge.

Perhaps the accused did "pull the trigger" but what were the exact circumstances? If it was in a sudden passionate fit of rage, then the charge of "1st Degree Murder" with its premeditation requirement doesn't stand. Unpremeditated murder almost always requires a lesser charge.

And what if evidence is introduced that it was an act of self defense? Then the charge of murder is vacated and the accused goes free. Also, society doesn't call the accused a "murderer" because the knowledge of the circumstances has cleared his name.

I feel that a similar case can be heard here. Steadfast has made a charge in the context of men being "almost pushed out" of the UPC because of the conditions that he says exist.

I say that if the jury could hear more evidence in the case that they will find that the sinful circumstances are not what they have been alleged to be, but that there is mitigating and even exculpatory evidence that will show that no one is "almost being pushed out" of fellowship over the toleration of "shacking up" and "social drinking" in the UPC.

I further submit that there exists mitigating and even exculpatory evidence that would exonerate Steadfast from your charges of "lying." I submit that when he went to the defense of his friends he "exaggerated" the circumstances. As I said before, I do not believe that deceit entered into his heart. It appears that it was only the thought of his friends.

Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 372634)

As I said before, I can't possibly know the details of these people's sex lives. What I said that wasn't the case, was that this sort of immorality was being tolerated by a UPC pastor.

Whether or not the "shacking up" has occurred seems to be a given. It is the accusation that sin is not being treated as sin by a UPC pastor. And that this condition of tolerating sin is "almost pushing out" men like those in the Tulsa group.

Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 372618)

Here you have it--he is STILL denying the truth of Steadfast's testimony regarding an individual situation he has knowledge of.

Still going to maintain he isn't questioning his honesty?

Not to mention what could be perceived as a veiled threat to report this conversation to the Texas District Board.

I think this misunderstanding will be cleared up by Steadfast. A little clarification will go a long way.

CS, do you believe there is a pastor in Texas who KNOWINGLY allows fornicators to minister on the platform?

Are there UPC social functions in Texas that serve alcoholic beverages?

Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 372660)

I think this misunderstanding will be cleared up by Steadfast.

CS, do you believe there is a pastor in Texas who KNOWINLY allows fornicators to minister on the platform?

Are there UPC social functions in Texas that serve alcoholic beverages?

I don't know every preacher in Texas, but I know Steadfast.

If he says it happened, take it to the bank.

Re: Tulsa Report Day 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 372624)

I am absolutely going to be quicker to come to the defense of someone whose character and integrity is wellknown to me than I am some one I don't know.

Unlike some of the more pure and noble, I will readily admit to that kind of bias, and have never madeany claims ofsome pristine and flawless consistency in matters like this...at least not as some define it.

That's what I thought. I was just hoping that maybe ...???