Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

How can you possibly take that from what I said?

I said: The effects of the cross were benficial and accounted even before Calvary.

You then ask: Are you saying the cross has no benefit at all?

Either you're not paying attention or you're deliberately attributing the exact opposite to what I say.

I deeply resent what appears to be a deliberate attempt to undermine my preaching of the Gospel.

I said: The cross perhaps has a greater benefit than what we've considered.

You respond by saying: "Pelathais says the cross has no benefit at all?"

No hard feelings intended here, but I just can't escape feelings of resentment over such a gloss.

I never said "the resurrection take[s] away from the salvific nature of water baptism..." I quoted the very words of Peter himself when I said "that baptism doth now save us... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." That's what the Book says (1 Peter 3:20-21).

Since the discussion involved the "salvation" sought for and apparently found by the Thief on the Cross, and the fact that this Thief was never baptized caused me to look for similarities between those who are "saved" and baptized and those who are "saved" and not baptized in the Bible. One similarity that leaps from the pages of the Bible is the hope for and faith in the resurrection of the Savior.

Add to this the fact that no one has even attempted to disprove my assertion that John's baptism was "for the remission of sins..." and that this "remission of sins" was accounted before the cross. The only response I get from that point is "Nuh-uh." No one has even attempted to address Mark 1:4; Luke 1:77; and Luke 3:3.

The people who responded to John's preaching received "the remission of sins" before the cross. And those are Mark's and Luke's words, not mine. The whole purpose of John's ministry was "To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins..." Those were the words that Luke attributes to the Holy Spirit speaking through the priest Zacharius, John's father.

Q: When did the people receive this "knowledge of salvation?"
A: When they heard John's preaching - before the cross.

Q:When did the people receive "remission of sins?"
A: When they came to John, confessed their sins and were baptized by John and his disciples and later by the disciples of Jesus Christ Himself (John 4:1-2) before the cross.

Q: Why is this important?
A: Because by looking at baptism both before and after the events at Calvary we can compare and contrast the different time periods and see what was "different" about after the cross.

Essentially, the "only" thing that was "different" was that Jesus had completed the promised work for our salvation. AND NOTE: I put the word "only" in the scary "QUOTE" marks to emphasize the fact that this event was a pretty big deal in my opinion. However, the "only" difference remains one of timing.

Those born and saved before the cross were no less fortunate than ourselves, except they didn't have power lawn mowers. But when it comes to salvation- they were saved by the same means and with the same hope that we today possess.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

If the thief on the cross died under the old covenant, why was he promised "paradise" which is the new covenant reward? I think the new covenant doesn't take effect practically until Pentecost. No one was baptized after the death of christ until pentecost.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Jesus' disciples were baptizing people before he was crucified according to John 4:2.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Were the people baptized before the death of Christ baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or John's baptism? If the new covenant doesn't take effect until the death of Christ and practically at pentecost then, were those believers rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ like the disciples of John from Acts 19?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

It makes no sense for them to be baptized with John's baptism the Scripture makes a clear distinction. You bring the supposition to the Scripture that they needed to be rebaptized.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

How were the disciples baptizing before the death of Christ? If it wasn't in the name of Jesus then I believe they were all rebaptized at Pentecost in the name of Jesus.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

It would make sense that it was in the name of Jesus. The practice was to be baptized in the name of the one you followed.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

You may be right, but I don't see how they would identify with the death and burial of Christ before He died and was buried. I think they were baptized unto repentance and at Pentecost in the name of Jesus. jmho

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

were John's disciples baptized in the name of John? I think not. If John's disciples needed to be rebaptized then I think those baptized by the disciples of Christ were rebaptized also.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I don't think that John made a decalaration of 'in the name of John' or 'in the name of Jesus' when baptizing. There is no scriptural evidence of either, but it is natural to assume that they were baptized unto John baptism, which by scripture we know was repentance. I believe that John baptized the people for their conversion to the saviour. If he were to make a declaration in baptism it might have been in the name of God, the Lord or the Saviour. Remember John did not personally know Jesus, but He knew Jesus as the Saviour of the world when he saw Him. 'Behold the Lamb of God!'

I do beleive that the ones John baptized did not need to be rebaptized after the death and Pentecost. They were baptized as an acknowledgment of whom they followed. We assume they were baptized in John's name, but a person he baptized was unto the Saviour cause that is who John taught about. Once Jesus was on the scene people were then baptized into Jesus' name I surmize because He was the one they followed. The ones John baptized followed Johns teaching ABOUT the saviour they did not follow John's doctrine but the doctrine about the Saviour