Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
(Post 769041)
I'll demonstrate why I believe this isn't sound logic. Jesus said that you are to love God with all that you are and your neighbor as yourself. Without referencing a single one of the Ten Commandments please tell me how that's done...
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Deut 6:4-5
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Verse 5 reads a little differently in the Hebrew.
And desire, breathe after, love and delight in this same Yahveh God with the totality of your heart, intellect, wisdom, emotions, will and purpose and with the totality of your breath, life, and soul, and with the totality of your strength.
That's not a to do list. That's what He wants. This is the first commandment.
If you love Him, you'll find out what He desires, and you'll do that. That's contained in the Torah.
I know I'm leaving off the neighbor bit. That's included in the Torah though, there are all sorts of "do this" commands there in addition to the "thou shalt nots" in the 10 commandments. Leviticus 19:10, 13, 14, 15....(just the page I happened to have open) I'm staying up too late anyhow, I can't go into all of that right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
(Post 769041)
Most can't deliver when I ask that. My point is that Jesus didn't "sum up" the Law in what he said, he clarified the Law and it's over all aim with what he said. He didn't erase or replace anything. He simply clarified.
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I never said he erased or replaced anything. Every law contained in the Torah supports what He said. He did sum the law up. Love God, love your neighbor. If you do those two things, you don't have to worry so much about the what because it'll naturally be what you're doing. If you love God, you're going to find out what He wants and desires, and you're going to do it. If you love your neighbor, you're going to help them when they need help, you're not going to be nasty to them, you're not going to do things to them that you wouldn't want someone doing to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
(Post 769041)
I stand by the fact that there is more to the Torah than the 10 commandments.
That depends on how you define Torah. You see most of us Gentiles think of the Torah as the Five Books of Moses. And academically, that's an acceptable answer. However, to a Jew the Torah is the Law of God. Everything in the Law of Moses has the purpose of sustaining one of these Ten Commandments. You can take every law in the Torah and you can find that each one of them can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments. The Law of Moses is an unfolding of the Law of God to the nation of Israel. The Law of Moses is no longer necessary because... we are not the nation of Israel. We are a spiritual Israel who is called to obey the Law of God without the carnal ordinances of Moses. So the Ten Commandments still stand.
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I don't think it matters much how you define the Torah, there's more to it than the 10 commandments either way you describe it here. There's more to the first 5 books than the 10 commandments, and there's more to the law of God than the 10 commandments.
You can take every law in the Torah and you can find that each one of them can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments.
And you can take every one of the laws in the Torah, and every one of the 10 commandments (redundant to say..I know..) and they can all be categorized under what Jesus said. So I don't get your point.
Of course the 10 commandments still stand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
(Post 769041)
And I stand by the fact that the entire law was fulfilled.
Yes, the entire Law, including the Ten Commandments, were fulfilled in Christ. Not so that we who are saved no longer have to obey the Ten Commandments... but so that he could purchase salvation for those of us who were lost. Now we are saved to live unto the Lord... by obeying the Law of God. Not ceremonial or civil codes of Israel and all that junk. But we are to live in harmony with the very fabric of God's morality and Holiness. And this is expressed in the Law of God.
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Right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
(Post 769041)
And I agree with Neubill that sin is transgression of the Torah. Again, that depends on how you define Torah. Some would say that if you eat a ham sandwich you've sinned. Well... that was a law of ceremonial cleanness in the Law of Moses designed to keep Israel from partaking in pagan feasts which featured swine's flesh. It's purpose was to uphold the Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me." Now Christ has fulfilled the ceremonial law that was being used by the Pharisees to bludgeon the people... but the Law of God, "You shall have no other gods before Me.", still stands.
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I've never really heard of defining the Torah in two different ways. I have to admit it's an interesting concept. One that doesn't make any sense to me, but that's ok.
I think in the end we're saying the same things. Maybe. Except for that defining the Torah two ways thing. I still don't get that. The Torah is the instruction and teaching. It's contained in the Pentateuch.
Ok wait. I googled. Maybe I get what you're saying. Are you talking about the possible definition that includes the oral traditions as well?
