Maybe I missed something in the translation.

100=10000 ?

If I have 1 part of 10000 it is NOT equal to 1 part per 100

But that's not what the stat says. I'd rather you quote what it actually says, which is nothing close to what you are saying.

The website doesn't clarify exactly what is meant by this statement, but it could mean a lot of things that has nothing to do with genitalia. The stat above says the bodies differ from what is standard, not genitals.

I know a boy who has 6 fingers on each hand. His body is different than that of a standard male.

I know a lady who has nothing developed below the elbow of her left arm. Her body is different than that of a standard female.

I think the stats were showing a comparison of chromasomal defects compared to other genetic defects without going into detail on each one.

Brad, you are reaching and bringing in rare anomalies to justify your choices in life.

However, even hermaphrodites live as one sex or the other, not change with the seasons. And in this day and age, chromasomal studies are done to determine what sex they actually are, and often, the decision is made in regard to surgery, although the right thing to do is wait until puberty or even adulthood to have the surgery....just in case.

You're an LPN working on your RN, I assume. You should understand this language better than anyone.

First, it is from the Intersex Socity of North America so its stats are dealing with intersex issues. If someone has an extra finger then they deviate from the standard human. If some deviates from the standard male then it is in reference to male anatomy. I don't think we need to clarify the anatomical differences between male and female. If one's deviation is not sex-specific then identifying the sex is not necessary. A person who has no arm below their elbow does not deviate from standard female’s anatomy but standard human anatomy. I am having a difficult time believing that you really do not understand what the statistic on the website is referring to. Every other statistic mentioned on that page is dealing very specifically with male/female anatomy, i.e. genitalia.

Of course they live as one sex or the other. The question was who they are allowed to have an intimate relationship with and whether that allowance should be based on their chromosomal sex or their genitalia. Are you suggesting that chromosomal sex is what determines who one human should or should not be allowed to be intimate with?

There are lots of diseases and conditions that are sex-linked, yet have nothing to do with physical anatomy. Perhaps it's referring to this.

It doesn't say what it's referring to, but assumption on my part, as well as yours. However, they have the stats for the specifics that don't tie in to the low stat you originally quoted when the others are so high.

Brad, discussing this issue with you when it has nothing to do with your situation, I feel, that it's just a way for you to justify your feelings in the matter. I'm not privy to discussing what others go through as a way to justify how I live, yet I feel that's what you are trying to do.

But to answer your question, if they choose to live as a woman, having both genitalia, then they should live as a woman and marry a man, if they so desire to marry.

But again, this is a rare situation and not one you have admitting to having, so you cannot take what their choices might be and apply them to yourself.

For those reading this blog let me clarify something that HeavenlyOne seems to want to deny. First of all, the statistics are located under the link "How Common Is Intersex?" which clearly implies it is not referring to sex-linked diseases such as hemophilia and muscular dystrophy but is referring to anatomical deviations. Also, the stat reads as follows: Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births. It specifically says "bodies." I admit it is vague but when it is looked at in its entire context it's pretty clear what it is talking about. Not to mention the fact that every statistic before and after it is also dealing specifically with genital abnormalities.

It has a lot to do with my situation because it proves that God's original creative plan regarding male and female has been altered genetically; likely as a result of man's fallen state. If there is a standard rule that applies to all and is specifically applied to homosexuals (i.e. "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve) then that rule must be applicable to all of God's creation. It is NOT applicable to hermaphrodites who ARE God's creation.

Also, if outward/anatomical variations can take place, and if chromosomal variations can take place, why is it so hard to accept that orientation variations can exist even if they do not reflect God's original creative plan?

Do you believe heterosexuals are born that way or do you believe heterosexuality is learned? If you believe it is learned then how is it that the vast majority of XX individuals are attracted to XY individuals and how is it that the majority of XY individuals are attracted to XX individuals? This proves that orientation is more than just a learned behavior. There is something genetic that causes one to be orientated to a specific sex.

Being sexually attracted to a male (XY) is only considered homosexual when we can identify the chromosomal sex of the individual with the attraction. If the individual is also XY then we consider the attraction to be homosexual in orientation. Therefore, if there is a genetic influence the causes MOST XY's to be attracted to XX's just as MOST XY's are born with a penis and testicles, it is just as likely that an XY can be genetically influenced to be orientated to an XY just as an XY can be born without a penis and WITH a vagina.

1Cor 7:1 ¶ Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10 ¶ And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

I fail to see anywhere in the New Testament when dealing with marriage (or if you prefer monogamous cohabitation) anything about a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

In verse 7 Paul says that every man has his proper gift of God. Is homosexuality a proper gift of God?

Brad, One more time...you are assuming-falsely - that you were born a homosexual. You WERE born however with a SINFUL NATURE - a propensity to sin - as were all of us. That nature will not be erradicated until,for the born-again church, we are caught away out of this world. WE MUST CRUCIFY THAT NATURE. You do, I do, we all do. That is the nature of repentance. Jesus does not repent for us. We must repent (turn sorrowfully away from sin) ourselves; knowing that He died to save us from our sins. He will woo us, talk to us, direct us, convict us, give us a measure of faith - but WE must repent.

Your example of Abraham & Isaac is non sequitur and not even understood correctly. In Genesis 22 "God did tempt (test) Abraham regarding Isaac his son. It was a test (tempt here does not mean that God tempted him to do evil - James 1:13). If Abraham did not fear God, Isaac would have been spared - not by God, but by Abraham. Your arguement does not make sense.

Then you mention "OT abominations" and conveniently ignore the New Testament scripture passages that clearly and irrefutably tell us that homosexuality is sinful, wrong and something that ought not to be done.

While you are living here in your resent life, God will not take your carnal, fallen nature away from you. Paul the apostle had to contend with his sinful nature as well (Read Romans 5 through 7); all of us do. What is incumbant upon you is to recognize your sinful tendencies and repent of them - God will help the repentant soul! Someone who is given to the sin of lying, must repent of their lying - even though they have a strong propensity toward the sins to which they more easily fall prey. Same with the gambler, the fornicator, the adulterer and the homosexual. Repent. Ask for God's help, His forgiveness, His mercy.

When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) he let his audience know that they had "with wicked hands" taken and "crucified the Lord of glory." We are all no less guilty than those gathered to hear him. When they heard this they were convicted and cried out to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" That was no idle question - they FINALLY recognized that THEY were guilty of His death by THEIR SIN!

Peter's answer is the answer to every one of us whose sin placed Jesus upon the cross: "REPENT....and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost..." (Acts 2:38) "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying 'save yourselves from this untoward generation.'" (Acts 2:40)

Apply the word and live free from the sin of homosexuality.

Homosexual and monogamous relationships leading to life-long committed relationships were not in the thoughts and minds of the writers of the Scriptures because marriage was a legal and contractual agreement BETWEEN TWO MEN and with the WOMAN BEING NOTHING MORE THAN PROPERTY. Women had no right to property or even to her children, because she existed only as an adjunct to her husband.

Homosexual covenant relationships are a modern and progressive concept just as mixed marriages are. We do not see an example of mixed marriages in the Bible, except the ones that were denounced, yet most would agree that mixed marriages are not in of themselves unbiblical. So is the case with homosexual covenant relationships.

Just in this last century, marriage was defined as a union between people of the same race. In 1967, for example, sixteen states had anti-miscegenation laws on the books, making marriage between two people of different races a criminal offense. At that time it was considered unnatural for the races to marry, much the same way society views same-sex marriages today.

It has been a pleasure chatting with all of you but I have to take a few days break in order to focus on my finals for this coming week. I will likely drop by again in the near future to consider chatting some more. Take care!

This is subjective. And, not meaning to imply this is true of you it is possible to be deluded

2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
2Th 2:12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.


Though I am not sure Paul meant this phrase to refer to homosexuals specifically

1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods which God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving.
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified through the Word of God and prayer.
1Ti 4:6 Having suggested these things to the brothers, you shall be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the Words of Faith and by the good doctrine which you have followed.

I don't see how "giving them over to" is judgement. It sounds more like what Paul is saying is that God gave them up

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

The problem with the statistic, if it's referring to what you claim it is, is that the other things they mention don't line up with the statistic.

They mention several chromasomal anomalies that are like 1 in several thousand, but then group them together and you have 1 in 100???

If something doesn't make sense, that's because it's not true.

Perhaps they made a typo. It's possible, but just like the commercial that claims 7 out of every 10 people with AIDS don't know they have it, I have to ask how they know that info if the people themselves don't know!

The stats aren't correct somewhere.

This reminds me of people who, when they are told how to be saved, the bring up the 'what about the guy who is on his way home because the preacher didn't have the baptismal filled up and he's killed before he can get baptized the next day' argument to justify why they don't have to get baptized to be saved.

Unless you possess a physical sexual anomaly, you have nothing in common with them.

You make statements about homosexuality and genetics as fact when there has been no proof to that statement thus far by those who are studying it and trying to find the homo gene.

I prefer to speak about facts, not suppositions, 'what ifs', or wishful thinking.

The only thing that is relevant here is what the bible says. Statistics, anecdotes....they are all irrelevant if they do not just add support for what the word says

uhhh

dunno about that.. but it's a cryin shame what Noah's son did to him...

I would say that homosexual relationships life-long or not weren't in the minds of the writers of the scriptures because the scriptures were given by the inspiration of God. While the scriptures do say to render unto ceaser and to obey the laws of the land, first and most important were the principals of God.

It seems quite clear in the scripture I quoted that Paul did not think the woman adjunct to her husband. The world at that time and since may have thought that way, but Paul is clearly showing us God's way.


Denounced? Do you mean when God drove out people before Israel so they wouldn't take of their daughters and eventually go a whoring after other gods?

Race had nothing to do with it. Worship did. Besides the only really progressive concept of mixed marriages is between the African descendants and European descendants. There really wasn't that much of a stigma between other races.

Anyway I fail to see how a mixed race marriage between a man and a women is the same case as a marriage between two men or two women. Maybe you could enlighten me more on this?


You talk about a man and a women being the same as a man and a man. Notice in the following that Jesus did not mention homosexual relationships. Was He also under the influence of society?

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

Dear Chosenbyone,

All of us caught in the lies of satan are tormented. Whether they be adulterers, fornicators, pedophiles, homosexuals, transgendered, those caught in the spirt that promotes being a peeping Tom, lust, pornography, addictions of any kind; alcoholism, substance abuse, gambling, sexual addictions, ect...

When struggling with any of these or similar sins/addictions we are confused, wonder what is really us...the us of what others have told us we are, the us of what we think we are, or the us of who satan tells us we are, or the truth in who Jesus says we are!

I do think we need to show mercy, grace, and compassion, but we also need to be truthful to people...they can be free from the lies satan tells them. They do not have to be bound by the addictions they have acquired whether from their own poor choices, the abuse done to them by others, or the transgenerational sins of the family.

Calling sin to be sin is not judgemental, but saying there is no hope and condemning people to a life without Christ and his transforming power is. I am so glad that the things that have happened to others, such as; physical, mental, or sexual abuse did not happen to me...not that I haven't had my own issues and demons to torment me.

The example you gave about a transgendered person afraid to be baptized because they would lose themselves is just what we all do when we are baptized...we die to ourselves, our will, and agree to give our life over to Christ and His will. It does take a sensitive and compassionate person to address this in a way that the person struggling will understand that we all struggle with the same things, only others to a greater extent.

I fight constantly with the side of myself that is strong and independent and have to force myself to submit to God's will. Not because I don't want it but because I hate to feel helpless or out of control or like I am giving up my identity. Trust is difficult for me...I have been hurt, had to survive against all odds, and to just fall into anyone's hands, and yes...sometimes I don't even realize how arrogant I am to think I can control things better than Christ can do for myself. When I have to wait, trust without questioning, not knowing where my next footstep will be placed...I am scared...you might say terrified and sometimes find it easier to go back to what I know and even the bondage I have been delivered from because it is comfortable..a.t least I know what to expect.

The transgendered, the homosexual, and those bound by other confusing and hell-driven addictions are not any more confused or scared than the rest of us. Instead of looking at what we perceive to be vast differences between us...we need to look at the truth of the commonalities we all face. Christ came to break the curse...we either believe it and give our lives to accepting and "Letting" God change us or we fight inwardly as well as outwardly our whole lives not really believing in anything...hopeless if you would.

In summary, we all struggle with different variences of the same issues...and we either believe Christ and his transforming power and 'let' it happen with us, or we don't believe, and die a most miserable death as we have lived in life. This is the saddest condition of all.

In God's Grip [most of the time],

Rhoni

Should I Love the Holiness of Man or God.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

if to love the Holiness of man, then we are lovng that which we do, to make ourselves more righteous and holy, in the sight of God. God said that our righteousness is filthy Rags to Him. Isaiah 64:6

If we love the Holiness of God, then we already have it through the understanding that it is the free Gift of Grace that justifies us, those who believe. Romans 3:24

I love the Holiness of God! I am proud to say I am weak and a sinner, so that His righteousness can be seen.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. I Believe! I Believe!!!

Should I Love the Holiness of Man or God.
 

Should I Love the Holiness of Man or God.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

if to love the Holiness of man, then we are lovng that which we do, to make ourselves more righteous and holy, in the sight of God. God said that our righteousness is filthy Rags to Him. Isaiah 64:6

If we love the Holiness of God, then we already have it through the understanding that it is the free Gift of Grace that justifies us, those who believe. Romans 3:24

I love the Holiness of God! I am proud to say I am weak and a sinner, so that His righteousness can be seen.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. I Believe! I Believe!!!

Rhoni,

I was a bit confused when my post showed up on this thread. I thought I had posted it twice, but then thought that was impossible.

I finally figured it out.

chosen

There are homosexuals that try desperately to show that David and Jonathan were gay lovers. There are other verses that have been twisted to try to show gay sexual acts are good..

So what is your point? Are you going to say believing means you can now do what ever you want?

Let's not be so selective with Romans

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.
Rom 6:13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

I am familiar with what you are gabbing about. I'm not even going to share my views on that. But, Noah was assaulted by one of his sons!!

And cursed for it

"Nature" is God's created design and all of nature was corrupted by Adam's sin. Thus, any aberrations (hermaphroditism, birth defects, disease, etc.) that occur are contrary to God's created design.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality and is nothing more than a red herring. Hermaphroditism is a birth defect - like being born missing a hand or being born blind or being born with Down Syndrome. Homosexual orientation, like heterosexual orientation ("orientation" being narrowly defined as the gender object of sexual/romantic attraction) develops during childhood and is non-existent at birth.

Because "orientation" develops during childhood.

As I said above, sexual orientations develop during childhood and God's created design is that mating should occur between male and female. Thus, God would obviously have created the first two humans with the desire to mate with each other. As for the progeny of those first two humans, the normal (God-designed) development is for males to develop a desire to mate with females and for females to desire to mate with males. Any other desire (males desiring to mate with males, females desiring to mate with females, adults desiring to mate with pre-pubescent children, humans desiring to mate with animals) is an aberration, something contrary to God's created design (and, thus, "unnatural" and abnormal).

So, what are you suggesting here, that before one determines whether one is heterosexual or homosexual one should undergo some sort of chromosonal testing to determine whether one is really male or female?

Or that God simply allowed them to suffer the natural consequences of their idolatry.

Well, Noah's grandson Caanan was cursed for it.

Allow me to jump in here momentarily.... if I may.

EVERYTHING we do, whether in word or deed, entails a personal decision. No, I do NOT believe that homosexuality is something which is developed during ones childhood. Simply put, IMHO, one chooses, of their own volition, to engage in an homosexual act, or NOT! Its just that simple, albeit one who elects to do so will certainly devise all sorts of reasoning for justification of their actions.

I learned many years ago that every act I undertake involves a decision. And it is my choice, ALONE, as to whether or not I choose to do something. To suggest that one is born with homosexual tendencies, or that this is something which is acquired/formed during ones childhood, is nothing more than assigning something other than PERSONAL CHOICE to support an act which stands in stark contrast to the distinctive difference which God instituted between the male and female at the time of their creation.

This is my personal view of this matter.

But not sinful?

Please clarify for me. First you say that "homosexual orientation, like heterosexual orientation, develops during childhood and is non-existant at birth." You then go on to say that the "God-designed" development is for females to desire males and visa versa. Are you saying, then, that orientation is not present at birth but develops later on? If so, are you suggesting that because it develops later on that it is somehow not genetically/naturally pre-determined?

The natural consequence of smoking is lung cancer. Does that make lung cancer sinful OR the consequence of something sinful? We can't judge everyone who has lung cancer simply because it is often the consequence of something that is considered to be wrong/sinful. Can we?

Just because the consequence of idolatry led the Gentiles of Romans 1 to be turned over to affections that were not natural to them does not mean that those with a geneticically predetermined oreintation which deviates from the norm can be judged as sinful.

Sin (whether in thought or action) is disobedience to the commands of God and is always a choice. When the Bible talks about homosexuality as sin, it refers to the thoughts and actions (in other words, embracing and acting on one's unnatural same-sex attraction).