Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 585760)

What about Samuel called upon by the witch of Endor? The Bible did not say it was a fake Samuel, but an actual Samuel. We simply read the bible comment on it and say it was Samuel!

1 Samuel 28:12 KJV And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Did the Bible lie to us?

And what About Moses and Elijah in Matt 17? VISION in the KJV is translated as simply what was seen in modern language versions. So it is not a vision as John saw visions iN Revelation.

All in all PAUL SAID ABSENCE FROM THE BODY WAS POSSIBLE. You have said nothing yet that is convincing about that statement by Paul, and even denied you believed it was a wishful fantasy although you said Paul only WILLED that to occur, implying it could not actually occur. That one verse disproves your entire hypothesis.

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 586248)

BUMP

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 586989)

Scripture does not lie.

Look at the rest of what Samuel said:

19: Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Do you believe that Saul went to paradise? Isnt that where Samuel was supposed to be?

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 586994)

No Saul did not go to paradise. He went to the realm of the conscious dead. Before the cross SHEOL contained both righteous and unrighteous dead, as in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. So the directive weas referring to the conscious abode of the dead.



God did not speak out of any image of anything. Samuel spoke.



Incorrect.



It has nothing to do with awakened from sleep.

So I can see proof that you are wrong in claiming that anyone who ever was spoken of as being conscious after death is only in a vision, etc.

Originally Posted by ronharvey (Post 587059)

Michael,

Even though I believe in the soul's repose at death, I have no problem with God re constituting anyone for any reason.

Samuel came up from the earth, not down from heaven.

It scared the witch because it was the real deal!

Still, Samuel returned to his sleep in death as well Saul and Saul's son came to the same place.

Conceptually God calls it a sleep because anything asleep can be awakened.

Man is a soul, he does not have one.

Example: Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Ron

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 587121)

It may be so, but it is simply not conclusive. Nothing in Samuel's story adds to the thought of sol sleep, anyway. But MTD was incorrect to say only visions and parables showed people conscious after death. That was my point.

And I still cannot get past 2 Cor 5 where Paul said absence from the body awarded presence with the Lord. That, as well as Samuel's case, seems to refute soul sleep. Verses that DO speak of sleep can be understood as speaking of the body, in light of these other passages.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 584744)

Hi Joel and Mike,

Could you explain where peoples souls went before Abraham died and went to take residence in his Bosom?

Why did the rich man pray to Abraham and not to God?

Where can we find Abrahams Bosom in the Old Testament?

Do you believe that the many thousands of souls who die every die and are in Hades burning hold conversations with Abraham?

Mike Blume is on record teaching that the spirit and soul go to Heaven at death but have no body until the resurrection. If this doctrine is true why did they both have body parts? The rich man wanted Lazarus to dip his FINGER IN WATER and then touch HIS TONGUE. The rich man had EYES which he lifted up. Apparently they were able to see Abraham so he had a body also!

Does this not negate the "disembodied soul" doctrine?

Last of all guys where does this story state that these two mens SOULS went anywhere?

I have been constantly told by instant Heaven believers that all the places that talk about the state of the dead always is talking about dead bodies only. They want the burden of proof to be on me to prove that 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4 in particular to prove the soul and not just the body sleeps.

But now here in the story of Lazarus and the rich man which they take as Yeshua's literal teaching of the afterlife the word SOULS does not appear.

So Mike how can you say their souls went anywhere at their death?

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 584817)

Here is the Greek to English reading of Luke 23:43. The words Yeshua said to the thief according to the Pocket Interlinear by Jay Green Sr. and the NKJV Greek Interlinear.

And Jesus said to him Assuredly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise.

The commas are added by men and not inspired. So you can see once that is understood Yeshua is telling the man TODAY I tell you you will be with me in Paradise.

That makes more sense with the weight of the scriptures and also as directly answering the thiefs request which was:

Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom.

He simply asked the Lord after he came into the kingdom to remember him.

And so the case agaist immortality/eternal life apart from the resurrection continues to grow.