Who Decides What is a Rebellious Act...or Not?
 

If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...

Any input??????

Rebellion against whom? It's only rebellion against God if it is disobedience to His word or to something He has specifically told the individual (which is always in line with His word). Otherwise, it may be rebellion against the teachings of the particular church where one is attending.

I trim my hair all the time.... :happydance

This is one of the teachings I adhered to when I came into the UPC and out of the world. I can not imagine letting down on the very principles that I feel saved me. In doing this I feel as though I would be backsliding.

So, you were saved by works and NOT by grace?

What are your thoughts on those who are considered "rebellious" they don't line up to the pastor? Not things that are mandated by the Word, but things the pastor requires... I'd say when it comes to those things that if you don't think you could live up to what the pastor teaches outside of the bible, then you would be safe to go a find another church...(and not church hopping either).. what do you think?

For my second posting risk of the morning....
in the face-hair-on-men thread now somewhere back around page 7-9, I was stirred by a posting response made by poster "Coonskinner"; I am copying into this post because I think it is asking the same thing as this thread is asking, albeit, with a male at the center rather than a female.

I am greatly interested in the part of your statement that I bolded above.

You words express an understanding that, operating within your calling and election in God, that YOU CAN DETERMINE what is and what is NOT rebellion.

This would make the issue of rebellion a purposed decision made by the recipient [protagonist] of the preceived rebellion NOT a condition of the person's heart [antagonist].

This is a dramatic departure from the way I was taught rebellion existed. I was always taught it was a "spirit of rebellion". With you comment, a spirit of rebellion could be made an issue or NOT made an issue. The only environment were something could be made or not made, is within the realm of men's dominion.

This post invites consideration of whether what is often called rebellion is actually a decision made by a man, with respect to the actions of another person, and NOT a reality established in the realm of the Spirit.

Well, I guess this is a 'taboo' subject...not one response from a woman who trims her hair.

I was SO strong about this years ago- and now it's becoming fuzzy and cloudy. I was hoping for some knowledgable input from folks who have 'been there' and 'done that'...42 views and 7 responses- are we afraid of the ambush, ladies??

Thanks anyways!! :tiphat

As I asked earlier, rebellion against whom? I can see how some might claim one is in rebellion against one's pastor or local church for not following what's taught but that isn't necessarily the same thing as rebellion against God. Where local church teachings are consistent with God's word, rebellion against those teachings could be considered rebellion against God. The Bible does command us to obey those who have the rule over us and the passage was referring to rule in the Church. Where church teachings are not consistent with the word of God (such as those churches teaching against beards), Peter's statement comes to mind to the effect of "Whether it's right for us to obey God or obey men, you judge."

The Scripture says, "Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath."

I think that is good advice for pastors too.

The Scripture gives the ministry the responsibility of taking oversight of the flock. Included in that responsibility is the setting of certain guidelines for the local assembly, through the prayerful application of Scriptural principles.

I do not personally feel that, regarding the issue you brought up, I could make it a test of fellowship, and thereby provoke to wrath.

The provoker is not blameless, and neither is the one who is provoked.

:tiphat
I obeyed Acts 2:38 I repented of my sins, was baptised in the name of Jesus for the remission of my sins and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
But Faith without works is dead.
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13: 17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

It isn't faith that saves us, it's grace that saves us; faith is just the means through which grace saves. The Bible doesn't say "by faith you were saved." Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (emphasis mine).

Luke 7:44 - Luke 7:50 (KJV) 44And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

So, you're ripping this passage out of its context to say that it is OUR FAITH that saves us and NOT God's grace? (NOTE THAT THIS IS A QUESTION, NOT A STATEMENT).

IF SO, THEN....

Ah, yes, the modern gospel of "All you have to do is believe." How many souls will be burning in the lake of fire if that's what you're preaching?

Before the thread gets either joked out of existence or to far off topic let me ask this question.

Where is the scripture that says a woman cannot trim her hair? I know where the one is that says long hair is her glory.

It's not out of context at all, and you are quick to jump to conclusions. :winkgrin

I don't remember the first time I trimmed my hair. I never felt a sense of loss and it never bothered me. My only concern was what other church people might think, since many believe it to be wrong.

Annie,

I use to believe that it was a hell issue. Then I studied the hair doctrine for myself. No longer do I believe it is heaven and hell. However, I do believe that if someone has a conviction against it, they shouldn't do it. I do believe women should have long hair. After all, it is our glory. And it isn't much glory balled up on top of someone's head.

I am UPC. I do trim my hair. My pastor does not preach standards. We have people on the platform and in leadership positions that trim their hair. It is long but trimmed. I personally know pastors in UPC that do not believe it is a heaven and hell issue. I am a UPC pastor's daughter. My husband is a minister. I think the pastors that don't believe it is heaven or hell, just don't deal with it unless asked.

On the other hand, I know plenty of UPC pastors that believe you WILL go to hell for trimming your hair.

No one can decide what is right or wrong for you. You have to put aside everything you have been brainwashed with and decide for yourself. You may come to conclusion that you feel it is wrong to trim it and if so, so be it. Good luck.

Let me know when you find it. :slaphappy

If it isn't out of context, the Bible contradicts itself. And I didn't draw any conclusions in asking what I asked. Asking questions is not the same as drawing conclusions and I would have expected you to know the difference.

In our church we were never taught that we couldn't trim our hair. It was not a subject that was preached on ever, really. We were taght in Bible studies that a woman should have long hair. People had differeing opinions on the subject of trimming. I always did trim my hair. We have many black women in our church (one being my DIL) who perm, trim and put alot of prducts in their haier to keep it managable.

I have a friend who listened to some tapes by a well known preacher who preached on women's standards. She decided when listening to these tapes that she would no longer trim her hair. After she made that decision she started to feel a feeling of bondage. It got worse and she studied scripture and then she decided to trim her hair again. She said the bondage was removed immediately. She felt God was telling her that this teaching was one of bondage and biblically incorrect.

If you are not trimming your hair because you think that leaving it untrimmed will earn your way into heaven, then you might as well go ahead and trim it. Shoot, you might as well shave it off!! You cannot "EARN" your way to heaven by following the rules of the church. You will only make it into heaven because of the what Jesus did for us on the cross. The grace that He extended to us by way of Calvary is the only means of salvation.

On the flip side, tho, if you are not trimming your hair because you truly believe that leaving it untrimmed is pleasing to God and your desire is to please Him above all else, then I honor that decision.

Just don't ever make the mistake of believing that what you do with your hair will buy your salvation.

Rebellion is disobedience...disobedience to God, disobedience to authority, disobedience to parents...etc.

I think, simplistically speaking, that when a woman believes that her hair shouldn't be cut, and she backslides and cuts it, that is an act of rebellion against God, because she is going against her own commitments to God and her professed conviction on that issue.

However, a person can change their mind, or be convinced or persuaded to a different point of view without it being "rebellion" or even backsliding.

Also, if a person never held the view to begin with, and were only abiding by the church rules, then it is not rebellion against God (from their perspective), but rather a rebellion (or at the very least a statement) against the church they are/were attending.

We attended a very strict church for awhile, and they didn't believe in women wearing denim, bows in their hair, or married women wearing their hair down. After we left the church (that assembly...not the church in general), I immediately went back to wearing my hair down, wearing my comfy denim and putting the occasional pretty clip or scarf in my hair. Was that rebellion? Of course not! We no longer attended the church, so whose authority would I be rebelling against? Certainly not God's, since there's no scripture against any of those things. And since we had a different pastor who didn't hold those sentiments, we weren't rebelling against our pastor either.

Now...that said...I think some people DO cut their hair, put on makeup, grow their hair long, put on jewelry, wear shorts, put on tank tops, and do everything else they can think of to flout the rules because they are rebellious. That is especially the case if they disobey the rules while still attending or belonging to a particular assembly.

If a person leaves the church or leaves the assembly, they have removed themselves from the authority of the pastor and church (in my opinion), and if there's any rebellion to pinpoint it would only be in reference to God Himself.

You brought up hair in particular, and here's my take: I have friends who keep their hair long, but they still trim the ends. However, their conviction based on scripture is that they should have long hair, (as opposed to uncut hair), and they are abiding by their convictions. I respect them for it, and I don't pick at their beliefs. To me, that's equivalent to one person believing skirts should be below the knees and another believing they ought to be at least to the calves.

As usual.....well said!

One thing I would like to add in (not necessarily to what Annie asked though) is that just because a preacher/person/pastor believes that it truly is a sin to cut your hair it does not mean he is brainwashing anyone - if he truly believes it in his heart. He is doing his best to see that his congregation makes it to heaven. I know of pastors who would change their beliefs on the spot of they felt God led them to believe differently. Maybe they are not all that way but there are some who are. Thank God for the sincere ones!!!

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread- it helps to hear other thoughts and opinions.

Great post. . .
The bolded part brings up something I remember from when I was younger and questioned the 'hair issue'. . .how long is long? It was explained to me this way: One person's interpretation of long hair/how long can be very different from the next. As long as hair was uncut, then it's long. . .however long it grows on its own w/out having been cut.

If we MUST have LONG hair to be saved them my mama is NOT saved and she hasn't cut her hair for 23 years!!! Her hair barely covers her shoulders yet it is uncut. If she trimmed it it would be even shorter. She had long hair while growing up and when she was like 19 she chopped it off above her shoulders and it has NEVER grew back to the same length - only a couple of inches and she is now 48!!!

Well, my hair was never long, although when I was young I always wanted to have that beautiful LONG Pentecostal hair. When I finally decided to cut mine, it was only about shoulder length (after 15 years or so of never touching it). I only had the bangs cut first, and felt so relieved that I could actually do something with it!! Later, I did end up cutting it, and have kept it cut, but I do not feel convicted by it at all; only condemnation from a few people at first.

My hair is so much healthier now than it used to be. All those years I didn't cut it, my "glory" was dead, broken-off, and in pitiful shape. It was because I have very thin, fine hair and it never looked good until I kept it trimmed. Years of wearing it up had nearly ruined it. I can't even imagine going back to those days, but I respect anyone who feels that they need to.

Well, I guess that settles it. :)

I have to tell you- I detest that term. Whenever I hear folk tout 'bondage' due to dress preferences set by their pastor- I cringe. I do not feel that I in bondage- not in the least, by ANY of the standards that I keep.

It's difficult to dicipher my feelings right now. When you have been taught something is wrong and salvational allllll of your life, and then, over time you see some of the same men that were against it, discount it because someone gets 'headaches' and such...it makes me leery if it ever was salvic to begin with. I have honored the wishes of my parents and my pastors, in regards to the uncut hair doctrine. Where I am struggling is, the reality of the ones I love being lost because they have chosen to cut theirs. It breaks my heart to think of anyone being lost for eternity, and I just want ASSURANCE from God that all is well. I'm not getting it in prayer, and I am sad beyond words.

Has anyone else been in this situation before that can maybe PM me with some encouragement in this situation??? I am sincerely NOT pointing fingers at anyone. Like I said- I have friends who have cut hair, and I don't think twice about it- but, this is my child- and I am confused, and sad. ANd I have to wonder WHY the difference? Why am I not sad for my friends?

????

We had a thread started with almost the same question you ask here.

I asked at that time ....... "Why do women cut their hair? Is it because they are consciously and deliberately wanting to be rebellious - to be disobedient - to disrespect and dishonour God and their husbands?"

I personally think not - not in most cases anyhow.

The conscience IS definitely formed to a large extent around how and what a person has been taught so unless you're absolutely sure of what Scripture is teaching and have a strong conviction that haircutting is not a sin nor is it displeasing to the Lord then you are very apt to feel the sting of conscience.

There IS a difference between conscience and conviction.

Just a few quick thots ...... BUT..... I am not going to tell ANY woman they should or ought cut their hair. I will tell them if I feel it's wisdom my understanding and knowledge of Scripture and what I feel Paul was teaching in its proper context and in the custom and culture of that day.

My apologies, I should have done some research before starting the thread. I was fresh out of my prayer time, and still feeling the heaviness of a burden, and posted without deep thought.

Thank you so much for your response- as usual, you make sense.

Maybe that was the convicting power of the HOLY GHOST making you feel that way.

No, because then I would have felt that whether I was attending a UPC church or not. I do know what Holy Ghost conviction is and respond to it. Trust me, I'm much more concerned with God's opinion than man's.

Sorry Annie. I posted in a hurry and slightly distracted from work. The thread I referred to in my post was started on NFCF. Not on this forum.

:)

The question remains- Is coloring your hair a different color different than cutting it?

Is this a lie, for you are now presenting something not true?

Same thing if you use a tinted cover up of some type to hide a pimple. Silly example you might say BUT ....... I can think of other examples also that are all about aesthetics.

:)

Sure, just the same as men or women who wear slimming outfits to make it appear they are thinner than they really are, wear perfume or cologne or wear deodorant as to cover up how they really smell, and people who wear contacts instead of glasses so people won't know they are sight challenged in some degree!

I used to feel the same as you do now. I was astounded that there were people out in the world that couldn't see the obvious as I did. I mean, the Bible plainly says that women cannot cut their hair, so how can anyone miss it?

Well, that's where I was wrong. See, I'd been taught it all my life and without reading it for myself, I took my pastor at his word (as he taught us to do). I preached it to others as well. When I got the internet in 1998, I had another venue to preach from.

For at least two years, I argued and discussed as nauseum on newsgroups about this issue. It was so plain, but some wouldn't see it. Instead, they asked me for scripture. Scripture? Why didn't they just believe me like I'd believed my pastor? Why did they need scripture?

That may sound funny to you, but I seriously didn't understand. So I took their challenge just to prove I was right. Then they would see.

Well, it didn't work that way. I am still unable to find those scriptures that my pastor told me where there. I had to come to a conclusion. What I'd been taught wasn't true, and if it wasn't true, then it was a lie.

Since coming to the GNC in 2002, and then to FCF, I learned a lot more that I'd been taught also wasn't in the Bible. I continue learning, but it's not all negative. In fact, I've learned more on the positive side of my salvation than not.

I'm grateful for those who have helped me, even if they aren't aware.