The burning Question
 

I have been given the awesome opportunity to engage in 2 Bible studies. Both set of peoples have asked for the 12 weeker too. Im excited and have started both of them.

Amazingly in the first session of each, at the end a similar set of questions came at me. In the first, "Why don't women wear pants" amoungst other similar clothing questions.

In the second, a young lady sat with her boyfriend (he's the one that wants the Bible study). SHe goes to church and was raised there. She sat with tears streaming down her face on my couch telling how she has never been able to live up to the "standard" and is know ashamed to go to the altar or even raise her hands to worship.

Wrong to feel that way? Of course, but she was just being real.

Her boyfriend then proceeded to ask what the obvious problem was with facial hair? He has a gotee.

Both couples attend regularly and are great people. But what was the burning question? It was the thing that was the most obvious. The thing that stands out. Maybe if I were in there shoes I would ask too.

The one that really bothered me was the young lady. Been around forever, in disagreement, but enough knowledge to know that if you don't line up, you better shut up.

Funny thing is she didn't get that from our Pastor. Most of our ladies dress the part (even if the don't believe it) but they woulddn't have condemmed her, I wouldn't think. So where did that come from? Is the old mindset so overpowering?

just ramblin.

Re: The burning Question
 

In my experience, the old mindset is so powerful that it is almost inescapable. Even when some people SEE it, they still have a hard time believing because of how it was "programmed" into them. :D

Re: The burning Question
 

Here is a great article dealing with performanced based doctrine and how it breeds legalism with or without standards.

http://inchristalone.org/BestBothWorlds.htm

MOW is right. Most people either lose their faith or give up all together and the mindset of performance based salvation is very hard to escape.

Re: The burning Question
 

I have read similar articles several times and agree completely. The revelation that many (not all) look at Acts 2:38 in the same legalistic manner that they do wearing (or not wearing) pants, TV, make-up, etc....
In other words, you cannot "drop the standards" and continue to look at Acts 2:38 in the exact same way. Like this article says, you cannot have the "best of both worlds", rather it is the "worst of both worlds".

Many have complained about churches that drop standards by saying "Well, every time standards are dropped, the 2-step plan of salvation follows!". For one it is not "every time" but more importantly, many people receive the total revelation of grace and see the relationship between rigidly defined standards and a rigidly defined salvation formula, and realize that they have been ignoring the cross and grace the whole time. It is often a sobering realization when it happens.

Re: The burning Question
 

There is a very interesting quote from that article.
"Martin Luther said that the person who leaves legalism for "liberty" is like the drunk who runs into one wall, and while running straight away from it runs into the opposite wall. There is a very long history of those who leave one error only to fall into a very different but equally disastrous error. This is true of those fleeing legalism who run head on into antinomianism (lawlessness). Both are equally wrong and bad theology. Granted the latter is more enjoyable and self-serving in many ways. But, the fruits are just as destructive when they finally mature."

Re: The burning Question
 

I've been thinking of this statement and am reminded of the Centurion who felt unworthy for Jesus to enter house. It commendable, I think, of this person to fell that, unless she is willing to give 100% to the Lord, she feels unworthy to even approach Him.

However, I find it sad that she has been conditioned to "meet" some standard before the Lord will accept her. Of all the examples of sinners coming to the Lord in the Bible, none were worthy, and none had to meet a standard to recieve God's grace. The woman caught in adultery was accepted by Jesus, THEN, and only then, He advised here to depart from sin. The woman at the well was accepted of the Lord, not on the condition of meeting a standard, but rather on her faith in Jesus as the Messiah. I don't know what "standard" this woman you speak of felt that she had to meet or live by, but, salvation is not predicated on keeping rules, and standards. Salvation is based on our faith in accepting the Lord as our Savior. Then, once we are accepted of Him at salvation, then He will help us to live by Christian principles.

I think its for good reason Jesus called us "fishers of men" And its also for good reason fishing is explemified in the NT so often. We should learn to catch the fish, then worry about cleaning them after they are in the boat! But, then again, sometimes, its our "cleaning skills" that leaves alot to be desired. We have resoluted and standardized our methods so much that theres very little left of the fish when we get throiugh with 'em.

Re: The burning Question
 

Well said, Bro!!!! :D

Re: The burning Question
 

I did not crawl out of one bondage (sin)

to crawl into another bondage (religion).

Religion did nothing for me. Jesus did it all.

Re: The burning Question
 

We must learn to love people just as they are,Jesus can do the cleaning up ,if we could only learn to love people and let the Holy Ghost do it's work.

Re: The burning Question
 

So bro Scott you think these people need cleaned up?

Re: The burning Question
 

All people need to be cleaned up. Scotts point ironically seems to be it's not OUR job to judge them...ironic because you just challenged him to do what he just said not to

Re: The burning Question
 

We all have need of the work of sactification by the Holy Spirit. It is our job to show support and lead a Godly life for new christians to see without judging them or putting our timetable on their maturity.

Re: The burning Question
 

Then you agree with Scott

Re: The burning Question
 

I almost always agree with him.

Re: The burning Question
 

I understand what you're saying Prax........but there is an underlying tone a lot of times.

Re: The burning Question
 

I have a hard time seeing underlying tones on the internet and thus could not say that is what Scott was doing

Re: The burning Question
 

Re: The burning Question
 

huh?

Re: The burning Question
 

PRAX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smack

Re: The burning Question
 

Funny, Praxeas.

Really I am confused by this thread. Don't we all agree that EVERYONE needs to be cleaned up or growing in the lord daily.

Kutless, are you thinking that Bro. Scott is talking about the folks that you are giving the bible study to. I think he was just speaking in general terms.

Re: The burning Question
 

Knowing Scott, I can emphatically say I am very certain he means "in general".

Re: The burning Question
 

People who visit an Apostolic church but dont hold to the standards have to be pretty strong minded and assured in the love of the Father to not feel intimidated by standards that they dont understand. Heck, some in the church dont understand them. They just adhere to it because they are told to do so.

I am with Scott Hutchinson...we need to allow God to do whatever HE deems is necessary for a person's sanctification and salvation.

Period.

But I wont tell a person they are going to hell b/c they wear pants or makeup. It is one thing if the Holy Ghost convicts me or anyone to pull off this or put on that. But never should it be super imposed on (especialy a weak believer) that outer standards equals holiness and merits salvation.

This is why many who do adhere to standards in the church hides behind long skirts and buns and are just as unholy and ungodly as the girl working the streets.

No wonder folks are confused.....