Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

This from a different thread ... still would like some feedback from the 3 steppers lurking about ...

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Some say the thief on the cross was saved under the old covenant ... what does that mean to you,?

Some insist, that the covenant has no bite until the death of the testator yet the bible tells us Jesus promises the thief salvation before He (Jesus dies).

and ....

not to get too technical ....

the thief dies after Jesus dies ...

so to say that he is judged under the law ... is inaccurate then under your parameters.

You reiterate that a covenant comes into force with the death of the testator: "For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives." (Hebrews 9:16-17).

but Jesus predeceased the thief ...

"Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs." (John 19:32-33).

Legs were broken to finish the job ....

Thus the thief died, unbaptized ... much less using the right formula, under the new covenant.

If it is not possible for a new covenant believer to enter heaven without baptism...what's the thief doing in Paradise? ... Which I believe is Mike from Arkansas original question.

One writer on the subject states:

Quote:
Keep in mind Jesus promises his salvation knowing full well He would die before the thief ... He's omniscient as God. Are you suggesting Jesus didn't know that thief would enter his reward ... during the "new convenant" era ... that requires baptism to be saved???

Surely the thief could have cursed God and not believed in the hours that he languished after Christ's death ... yet salvation is granted to a new testament believer looking forward ... to a dispensation you view as grace through obeying 3 steps to enter the New Covenant.

Surely Jesus knew what He was doing, no?

Furthermore ...No one has ever been acquitted by the law ... correct?

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

"We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." (Galatians 2:15-16)


So when does the New Covenant have bite or go into effect??? Is it until He dies??, resurrects ???... the Day of Pentecost???

Did the thief still die under the Old Covenant ... and thus saved by the Old Covenant? Do you have Scripture to support this claim?

An answer to these questions is warranted ...

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Who said the NT went into effect when Jesus died. Him dying isn't the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Romans 1:16-18 ( KJV ) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Agreed .... so I must believe in the good news of Christ for salvation... and His righteousness is revealed from faith to faith ... we are justified and live by faith ... that is why the thief was awarded eternal life ... faith in Him ... looking forward to the salvation he would provide ....

This gospel of Christ brought the power of God's salvation to the Jew first ... then the Greek.

I'd like an answer to the questions posed about the thief, Dan.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Dan, the death of Jesus isn't the new testament. Who is saying that? Is this an attempt to justify your one step beliefs? This is what it has come to? Y'all are truly sick and bent on twisting the Word of God to fit your perverted notions about salvation. Which of your supposed PCI elders preached this ridiculous doctrine?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Rico ... if you can't enter this discussion without any theology or an honest attempt to answer the questions posed perhaps you can read the thread?

This will be my last communication directed towards you on this thread if you will not discuss the subject matter.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Concerning the thief that Jesus said would be with Him in paradise, he would not be under the new covenant because the Holy Ghost (the seal of the new covenant) had yet to be poured out.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Thank you Dan for your response to the subject matter.

So the New Covenant officially begins at Pentecost, Dan?

Can you elaborate?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

You are most welcome Dan! Hope it cleared things up for you..........:toofunny

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

What was it about the two texts I cited that you do not understand concerning the New Covenant? :winkgrin

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Good, because I have nothing left to say to you. It's one thing to differ on when someone is saved or not. I know that there's plenty of room on this forum for one steppers, two steppers, three steppers, and more steppers. However, what you are proposing here is an outright LIE, plain and simple. Any lamebrained numbskull knows the new testament did not go into effect until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The Bible is very clear on that and you have crossed over into promoting false doctrine. That makes you a false prophet, as far as I'm concerned and my eyes are closed to any more of the jibberish you like to pass off as truth. Good riddance.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Interestingly enough I have not offered when the New Covenant began ... read my post carefully but rather that some say it did not go into effect until His death ..

Part of my question was when 3 steppers thought it did ... His death? Resurrection? or Pentecost?

a. DWW believes it was at Pentecost.

b. From your insistent post I must surmise that you believe it did not go into effect until his resurrection ... (any lamebrained numbskull would know that ...)

c. and St. Matt ... who may be the real target of your ire towards "false" doctrine... believes:
I believe you owe me an apology for calling me a false prophet on this one ... but I digress ...

My post was for those baptismal regenerationists who say that the New Covenant goes into effect at His death ... which apparently does not include you ... my brother ... I was using their logic as parameters for discussion and refutation.

Can you show why you believe that the New Covenant does not go into effect until his resurrection? How does this apply to the thief on the cross? Is he saved under the New Covenant, Old, other?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Does it matter? He was saved. He put faith in Jesus, that was all that matter, it is a totally isolated case. I heard one guy say that the only valid reason not to be baptized is being nailed to the cross, then you might have a case to argue exceptions.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Dan, save it, Bud. I'm done with you.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I'm sorry you will not join this discussion about why you believe the New Covenant goes into effect at His resurrection as opposed to some of your soteriological cohorts who believe it has no legal bite until His death ... quoting Hebrews as substantiation.

It would been interesting to see your take in light of the Scriptures in opposition to the Pentecost theorists... Perhaps DWW can elaborate more on proving his view that it was the day of Pentecost.

It might prove fascinating if you decide to keep your hat in the ring ...to hear 3 steppers disagree on something for a change even if they are lamebrained numbskulls for not agreeing w/ your position on this matter.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

in my humble opinion the thief was saved under the old covenant and the new covenant didnt take place until pentecost we all know that this is when peter was give the keys to the kingdom of heaven in the book of acts thus starting this grace dispensation ....i just recently read something in matthew 27:51-53..... does this mean that all the saints under the old covenant are in heaven? there sin sacrifice only rolled there sins ahead a year it didnt erase them

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

While this isn't the ONLY time a death bed confession took place, to me it screams that GRACE is ultimately what saves and not idolizing a formula above all else. Does it happen often? Of course not. In fact, throughout history, true death bed confessions are probably VERY rare. I've just always held to the belief, which is reinforced by the thief next to Jesus, that someone who is in a situation where they do not have access to a pentecostal preacher to baptize them or shake their heads hard enough so something similar to tongues comes from their mouths, is saved if they simply ask God.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

so jesus bieng the ultimiate sacrafice for our sins he sealed the old covenant and began ours ....i will have to do some scipture searching to provide evidence if i have mispoken please forgive my igornance

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Right, Actually his blood was necessary, but the covenant was not till Jesus sat on the right hand of the Father

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Time out ... Rico believes it was at his Resurrection ... and you agreed?

Was this immediately out of the tomb?... are you stating that He sat on the right hand of the Father upon his initial resurrection ... or are you speaking of His ascension, Praxeas?

I know some believe he resurrected and went to heaven for a moment to present His sacrifice ... in between his apparition to Mary and Thomas??

Some clarification ... are you asserting that the New Covenant goes into effect ... at His ascension? Glorification? Exaltation? Pre-Pentecost?

How does your view apply to the thief???

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Dan, I was going to wait until morning and post a reasonably detailed response, but this is actually does not require that. In addressing the thief on the cross and whether saved under the law (OT) or gospel (NT).

The New Covenant could not exist without the gospel, and the gospel did not exist until the resurrection of Christ.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I believe part of the covenant includes Jesus sitting on the throne and ruling. There would be no covenant if Jesus died. His blood ratifies it like all others covenants but was not active until Jesus sits down on the right hand of power. This shows his eternal Priesthood which is essential as part of the covenant.

So it was ratified at his death but not put into place until he ascended and sat next to the Father. I could be wrong but part of the element of the covenant was his eternal priesthood

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

This is Rico's position as of right now ... not St. Matt's ... DWW's .. Redmann's ... Waiting on Praxeas ... he apparently doesn't either.

So was the thief saved under the Old Covenant ... ? Why/how do you say so ...?

I know we've discussed the "in the mind of God" versus the necessity of the acts to happen for legal purposes ....

Care to explain why both the death and resurrection must occur for the New Covenant to be in effect? Again any ties you can bring in to the thief would be helpful.

Scripture would be vital.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having a high priest over the house of God;

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

So this would be at his exaltation ...correct ... after his ascension? How would you term it?

Do you have scripture to substantiate the eternal Priesthood aspect of your argument?

This would differ from saying it was in effect immediately after his resurrection ... I believe ... and prior to Pentecost.

Thoughts on the thief?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Bump and more
Heb 7:18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath,
Heb 7:21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever.'"
Heb 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

The thief was saved by faith in Christ apart from the works of the Law

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Thus was not saved by the Old Covenant?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Hebrews makes it clear BY the OT or the law of Moses nobody was saved

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Exactly. We have patriachs being justified by faith before Moses gave the law and after Moses gave the law.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I look at water baptism like OT circumcision. It was necessary to do. It did not necessarily bring you into covenant but it was a necessary sign or seal of the covenant.

Or maybe it was part of what brings one into covenant...even the NT speaks of saved and repentance, saved and confession, saved and baptism...I don't know how and it probably does not make much sense but maybe one is saved at faith...then saved at baptism etc etc.

Abraham had faith and was justified by faith but as James says we can see how he was justified by his works as well. God already know Abraham's heart...why allow him to go all the way to the top of Mt Moriah and nearly slay his son?

Anyone not circumcised was cut off from Israel.

This opens the door into what I read Dr Segraves once argue about the removal of the body of sins of the flesh.

Forgiveness or washing might be two pronged. There is God's heavenly accounting, but then there is our own conscious. Just some thoughts

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I think this thread has progressed enough that we can safely say that all who were saved under the Old Covenant were saved by faith and that their salvation was perfected in the death of Christ. The thief on the cross regardless of the covenant was saved by faith. The reason it doesn't matter is because people are saved on both sides of the death of Christ on the basis of their faith and His work. The Scripture is clear that the path to salvation has always been the same. Faith.

It is clear in Scripture that circumcision was about obedience. Circumcision alone however accomplished nothing. It was faith that was the issue, and people of faith under the Old Covenant were circumcised. People of faith under the New Covenant are baptized. Faith is the issue. Baptism does nothing on its own, it saves no one. Abraham was saved by faith apart from circumcision, but through obedience was circumcised. Believers today are saved through faith and are baptized out of obedience. The Thief is a perfect example, he was neither baptized nor circumcised after belief. Salvation is at faith under both Covenants.

Romans 4:3-13
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

I believe you're right. Not only does Peter say Jesus sat on the right hand of God but that it was from there He sent forth the Holy Spirit, a promise of God prophesied by Joel. Acts 2, Jer 31

The new covenant went into effect on the day of Pentecost in Act 2. We are now all taught of the Lord. The Holy Spirit we receive by faith which is evidenced by tongues is our teacher.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

He's an exception to the rule during a period of flux.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

Dan, maybe I missed it,but I didn't see you give your opinion on this yet.

So if you don't mind, can you tell us... when did the New Covenant take effect, in your view?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?
 

OK, I'll put in a few cents worth of thought:

When I was a "solid" 3 stepper, I used to say that we can't make a doctrine out of an exception, when it came to the thief on the cross. I now see that God was doing what He always has done, "having mercy on whom He will...."

First off, most Christians believe that the Jews have the same view of salvation that they do. i.e. that salvation takes place at a "point." Perhaps when one decides to become a Jew or at brit milah (circimcision) etc. The Jews didn't and don't have that type of view.

We superimpose our views, so many times, over upon Judaism as if we know what they believe. I am not a scholar when it comes to Judaism, but I have studied it for over 15 yrs. In my study, one thing which shocked me and caused me to do further reading was the fact that the Jews don't and haven't believed that obedience to the law "saves" them or ushers them into the afterlife.

Remember, Judaism came FIRST and is the foundation that everything else is laid upon. No one in the Jewish community would have thought that the thief is finally saved because of the testator viewpoint. They would have thought that the thief was saved because of the mercy of God.

The Jews believed that one followed the law BECAUSE he/she was Jewish not to BECOME a Jew. So, following the "original intent," which is what I believe we should do, one gets baptized etc, BECAUSE they are a Christian not to BECOME one. In other words, they follow the Word not to BECOME a child of God, they do it because that is what a child of God does.

Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep my commandments."

I am not and never have been a proponent of "easy believism." If you are a child of God, you have surrendered your life to Him. If not, it doesn't matter how many times you get baptized or speak in tongues.

No relationship = you're TOAST
Relationship = salvation
Salvation = following Him