Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellion?
 

Should every pastor and church be connected to a denomination?

Can there be true oversight without denominational affiliation?

Are independent churches operating in rebellion?

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

NO

YES

NO

:whistle

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Talk to my pastor. He can give you some advice from experience. :)

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Some things depend on circumstaances...

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

1- No
2- Yes
3- No

A pastor should be directed of the Lord. How has the Lord directed in his life and ministry?

Walk and Talk

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

What scripture can you provide to even support the idea of an organization or denomination?

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

No man is an island....

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Charnock, since you asked those questions, tell us...

What do YOU think?

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Prov. 15:22 comes to my mind...


Without consultation, plans are frustrated, But with many counselors they succeed.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Without advice plans go wrong, but with many advisers they succeed.

King James Bible
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

American King James Version
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

American Standard Version
Where there is no counsel, purposes are disappointed; But in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

Bible in Basic English
Where there are no wise suggestions, purposes come to nothing; but by a number of wise guides they are made certain.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Designs are brought to nothing where there is no counsel: but where there are many counsellors, they are established.

Darby Bible Translation
Without counsel purposes are disappointed; but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

English Revised Version
Where there is no counsel, purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

Webster's Bible Translation
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.

World English Bible
Where there is no counsel, plans fail; but in a multitude of counselors they are established.

While a person needs counselors they also need freedom to obey the Lord...putting the two together is often hard!

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

John the baptist was the greatest of all prophets, they probably called him rebellious.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I believe there is some good in denominational affiliation. Foremost being benefits like fellowship, accountability, tradition and ministerial presbytery. Denominations also pare down doctrinal ambiguity in the local assembly. The general population needs only look at a local church's denominational affiliation in order to discern what to expect when attending.

However, I believe there is just as much good in nondenominational assemblies. Autonomy does not necessarily imply lack of oversight. Many nondenominational churches have very strong accountability systems. The lack of an external presbytery can be a blessing as well. This frees the nondenominational church to be individualistic, unique and completely homogenous.

Abuse is possible whether a church is tied to a denomination or not, and often the denomination itself is abusive. Further, denominations can tax the local assembly into oblivion. I have seen this happen on many occasions within the United Methodist Church. Invariably local churches end up serving the bureaucracy of the denomination instead of the denomination serving the local church.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

agreed.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

When speaking of the church, we refer to it in either the local or universal sense. From looking at the biblical record, we find that local churches were organized to be independent from each other (1 Peter 5:1-3), answering only to Jesus, the Head of the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). In passages where the universal church is under discussion (Ephesians 5:23-27), scripture is silent concerning any formal organization. The Lord’s church has been organized without earthly headquarters and bureaucracies. Jesus is the head of the church and elders in local congregations answer directly to Him.

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-local...sing-error.htm

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

God's Wisdom Shown In Local Autonomy


We can easily see the wisdom of God manifested in the autonomy of the local church. If all the congregations were joined by some sort of "inter-congregational alliance" or "organizational federation," the dangers of apostasy would be greatly increased. If one congregation in the "alliance" should turn to apostasy, there would be a distinct danger of every other congregation in the "alliance" becoming affected. Or if one group of elders were given the right to oversee many congregations, and they should go into apostasy, every congregation under their oversight would likely be led into the same apostasy. But when each congregation is an independent and autonomous body this is not true. One congregation or one group of elders may go into apostasy without affecting all of the others. Any congregation, of course, through false teaching, may be led into apostasy, but we should recognize and respect the greater degree of safety that is found in the autonomy and independence of the local church. God arranged it that way. Let us strive to keep it that way. Man's "brotherhood projects" are not an improvement upon the divine system of operation.

www.watchmanmag.com/0406/040603.htm

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

The autonomy of every local Christian Church is a clear and vital principle of Scripture. Unfortunately, it is a truth which seems to be now widely ignored with much damage resulting.

In the earliest days of Christianity there were a few specially chosen men who were given certain "apostolic authority" by the Lord. They served the Lord before the New Testament was given. As they passed on, they left behind a body of inspired truth called "the apostle's doctrine." A part of which is a clear mandate for local church autonomy. It was made clear that there is to be no level of human authority between the Lord and the local church elders.

Anywhere, or if by any means, human authority is superimposed upon the government of the local church, or used in such a manner as to provide a humanly co-ordinated government between local churches, this principle is violated. Whether the transgression is on a national or international scale it makes no difference. Or, in a more subtle way, if "circles of fellowship" or inter-church ties are cultivated and enforced by influential leaders, the error and resulting damage is disastrously the same. A sect is formed. There is a division of Christian testimony and a rallying around certain ideals or concepts other than the Word of God allows.

Nowhere is it taught in Scripture that all Christian churches are to be uniform. They are all under the same Divine headship. They are all to conform to the same perfect Word. Beyond that they express local individuality and are answerable only to the Lord Himself.

The early churches in Caesarea, Ephesus, Corinth and Rome, for example were clearly different. Each had a distinct character fashioned no doubt by its ethnic composition, local conditions and customs etc. in terms of those differences no one of them was more "right" then the others. There was no commandment that they should all meet in the same sort of building, be known by the same human name, dress in a certain fashion or have a certain seating arrangement. Such matters, and many more, were left to the discretion and wisdom of the local elders.

Sectarianism comes from human presumption and results in human pride. It is born when some believers conclude that they should separate themselves from some of the Lord's people over some issue upon which the Scriptures give no direction. Having therefore committed the prior sin of the Corinthians - creating divisions - they proceed naturally to the same succession of errors as plagued that early church. The carnality that accompanies division (I Cor. 3:1-7); the pride of being different from others (4:7); being puffed up with sectarian ideology instead of mourning over unjudged sin (ch. 5). This leads inevitably to internal strife (ch. 6) until the whole system winds up as a house divided against itself. The original sin of division when unjudged, perpetuates itself into more strife, more bickering, still more divisions and of course, more trouble.

It is no wonder that the saddest examples of ecclesiastical weakness are found today amongst those who most prided themselves in the notion that by this kind of division they would gain greater heights of spirituality. It is surely time to deal courageously with this basic error and condemn it wherever we find it and to return to follow the simple principles of New Testament church autonomy.

Christ the only Head. (Eph. 1:20-23, 5:23). He is the Owner, the Master and Director of each and every component of the Christian church. His Word is the only Oracle that speaks with divine authority throughout the Church. The Word of God reveals no other authority within the Church that applies to more than a single local church.

If a certain thing is done or a given issue is resolved a certain way in one church, that is not reason itself to apply the same decisions in another local church, unless there is a clear scriptural mandate touching on that matter.

Christ is the only inter-church link. Note carefully Rev. ch. 1. There the Lord is seen moving in the midst of the lampstands. Those seven lampstands bore no formal relationship to one another except through Him. Here is a lesson we need to learn afresh. Between the churches there is found no horizontal (human) linkage. Their relationship with each other was only via the vertical linkage that binds each to the One who is in their midst.

This clarifies the Biblical distinction between division and separation. Separation is that good and scriptural practice which sets apart all the Lord's people to Himself. Division is the sinful practice that challenges His Lordship amongst His own and seeks to disrupt their fellowship with one another through Him by introducing fragile horizontal relationships.

personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/familiaknott/Autonomy.htm

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Well, we're independent for a couple of reasons. #1 being that we can have more of an influence on our community being independent than we can in a denomination. #2 I have not found a group that justifies me paying the monthly dues! :D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Hey, Bro, would you please elaborate on this for me? I'm not rebuking or refuting, I'm sincerely curious how you support that statement. I've heard that it's harder to get tax-exempt status without an affiliation and even harder to get a bank loan should we ever decide we should purchase a building.

My brother-in-law and I are talking and praying about this as an option. Seems there's another pastor in our area bad-mouthing us because we have, evidently, stolen some of "his people." While we have never specifically asked any of them to come with us, we have not told them they are not welcome either. Some of the politicians in our district are stirring up trouble and it's making it difficult to even attend fellowship meetings. He's paying monthly dues to basically receive no support from the presbytery.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

DITTO!!!

I think Indies are far greater in some areas of ministry than ones tied to a movement. The Indies can choose to do something with the church boards approval and they only answer to themselves.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

It has been preached for years and independent churches (or the concept) has been condemned, because they refuse to come under any sort of accountable leadership...which you know in the UPC when you refuse to come under leadership you are instantly considered rebellious.

This notion reflected on two large churches in our city one UPC and one independent (Apostolic) that were like the Apostolic version of the Hattfields and McCoys....but not so much anymore as one of the pastors retired.

Every time saints came to the UPC from that church they were coming out of the wilderness and deadness and from darkness into the light, and when they left the UPC to go to the independent, those saints were rebellious and full of bitterness...and oh yea, were unwilling to bow to leadership.

:D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Tax exempt is not a problem. You pretty much have it from day one, as long as it is a "normal" church situation but you still need to file with the IRS....usually just a formality.

Regarding bank loans, we've had no problem whatsoever. We've just demonstrated ability to pay. We just borrowed $150K a couple of years ago to do some things around here and hire a youth pastor. Our equity was there and we provided the bank with a business plan and it was no problem.

Regarding ordinations: Even though we are independent, in the State's eyes, we are our own "denominational" ordaining body. I can ordain anyone and it is just like any other denomination.

Regarding accountability: There is always the danger of abuse and that exists whether in a denomination or not. The key is to have good leaders on board and a good accountability system, which we have. I have a lot of authority, but it comes from trust. We still have things in place like signing a loan or selling that can't be done by be alone. It takes a board decision or maybe a congregational decision, depending on what the situation is.

Impact on our community? Being independent/non-denominational allows me to interact with MANY other churches since they can't pigeon hole us with a denomination. Interaction translates into influence. It also helps me in the political and business community as well. That may not be the case everywhere, but it is for us.

Hope this helps! :D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Yeah, it's like there's not enough sinners to go around! :D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

:ursofunny..........Coming from an Independent background, we heard it in the exact opposite manner. It's all a matter of perspective and BACKGROUND!

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

You got that right. I find it so hilarious when the church says they want to, "Reach this city for Jesus" yet they knock pretty much every other UPC church into oblivion and people are driving almost an hour to get to THE church.

yea...lots of sinners...in other UPC churches across town to be sure. Talk about low hanging fruits...I mean fruit.

:D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Well being on the UPC side, we were considered ring wearin, floozy loosy goosy wearers of red, sex on the platform, exposed ankles and armpits and whatever else...

:D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

One could also skip the "tax-exempt" status, and keep their freedom of speech & freedom of religion, and not get fitted with a governmental muzzle.

One could also not get a bank loan....I was always taught debt was a bad thing....

If God wants something to happen, He will make it so.

Just my 2 cents :-)

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I don't have any governmental "muzzle."

Debt is not a bad thing. The misuse of debt is a bad thing. :D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Do your ushers carry those little credit card machines around when it is time to collect tithes and offerings?

:D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Was the early church set up as an organization, or as autonomous assemblies?

What of Jesus' communication to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Revelation 1-3)? He addressed each church individually, realizing that churches are defined by geography, ethnicity, secular government and spiritual dominions.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I don't recall an organization or denomination....I know it is probably hard for some to believe that a group of believers could flourish and sustain fellowship without a Mother Ship........:whistle

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

No, we have card readers at the pews! It's easier for the people. :D

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I know this is WAAAAY off the beaten path, but you know those bags with the wooden handles they pass around to take offering and people smile and then hand them off to the person next to them?

Ok, I sit toward the back, and by the time the bag reaches me, at least 200 people have touched and squeezed those nasty wooden handles. I can't imagine the microscopic nastiness those handles have on them. I don't even touch em, I handle the thing by the rim....people scratching their feet and butt, and nose and ears...then they touch that thing???

oooh, no wonder Howard Hughes went looney toons!

:toofunny

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I got in on this a little late .But no Independant apostolic assemblies are only considered rebellious to those in organizations. However if they are Baptizing in Jesus name and Obeying the gospel no matter what they call themselves they are not rebellious to Jesus and are part of his CHURCH. And therefore HIS.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Not to mention the forced handshakes......I keep hand sanitizer in my purse, and use it for just such occasions LOL

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

If someone was in an organization such as the UPC and got publicly rebuked for committing adultery and lost his license and left on bad terms with his pastor and started an independent church, then my vote is - yes he is in rebellion.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I was at a UPC assembly for the first few years of my walk with GOD, and now I have been going to an indep assembly for about a year, and the grass is greener!
I believe it is in rebellion to GOD and to the NT pattern of the Church to be in an organization. I am one of those people who truly believe that the structure of something will effect the working of something. I do believe that an assembly wrongly structured will not reach it's full potential. I await the day when the structure is made right and we have a glorious Church!

-Bro. Alex

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

In answer to your question: Many independent churches are operating in rebellion. They refuse accountability to an organization, and many times to a congregation. My limited knowledge of some of these; they are indepnedent because they don't want anyone telling them what to do, or they have already transgressed and cannot join any organization because of past sin or misconduct.

Not ALL independent churches are rebellious. Some truly believe they are following the mandates of God without the limitations of man.

JMHO/
Rhoni

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

1) No a pastor doesn't need a den.

2) Yss, ther can be oversight if the ministry is biblical setup.


3) No.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

BINGO! We got a winnner folks!

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

that's another issue, should the church register with the government?

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

How can anyone operate in rebellion when no one, absolutely no one, including the most distinguished and respected preachers that you can think of can prove that God gave them authority to speak for Him and have authority over other people?

They cite vague references in the Bible and claim that gives them personally the authority to be over others... using that logic, I could read a U.S. History book and claim to be a police officer.

You can only be in rebellion to authority if the people you are in "rebellion" to actually have any authority.

A police officer has authority because the "powers that be" actually certified him to act on their behalf.

A preacher (or an organization) only has authority because people decide to follow him and he has no certificate from God to prove that he has authority from God himself... he may (or may not) have a following, but a following does not prove that he actually was given authority by God... any more than a school bully with a few lackeys has any authority at the school just because he has a following.