Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

How about this:

2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:2-3

Jesus said before we will be with him where he is he will have to come again and receive us to himself. I take this to mean at his second coming.

Instant Heaven doctrine says as soon as you die you are with him where he is.

Who should we believe?

AT Jesus' second coming are we supposed to meet him in heaven? I thought we were to meet him in the air and then sometime later the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and forever we will be with the Lord

The Father's house and mansions in this chapter has nothing to do with Heaven but rather Sonship.:aaa

If human bodies decompose ,where do the souls of the departed sleep at ?
Are they just floating around somewhere awaiting judgement day ?

This is how I understand the chronology:
rapture (meet Him in the air, to be forever with Him), 2nd coming (back to earth),beast and false prophet cast into lake of fire,satan bound 1000years (in bottomless pit), millenial reign(Jesus and saints rule over remnant on earth) satan released, final rebellion of satan(on earth),satan defeated and cast into lake of fire, white throne judgement,heaven and earth pass away, new heaven and new earth, new Jerusalem( out of new heaven onto new earth) where we are forever with the Lord.

As for the dead in Christ I'm not too clear on that, I think that their souls are in heaven and thier dead bodies are transformed and meet thier souls in the air at the rapture.


ARPH:doggyrun

There are other biblical references to people being in heaven already and where did Jesus tell the thief hanging on the cross he would see him that day?

People can pick and choose isolated scripture to try and support just about any thesis. The reality is that whatever the answer is it has to reconcile with ALL scripture regarding the matter.

They're dead.

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:bored

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Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

I think my spirit and soul will just go to paradise,a much nicer place.
Luke23:[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The word of God is Jesus,we are saved if we believe in him the word.I wonder how many people really believe enough to be saved ?

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

Just kidding, I believe they are in a temporary adode with Jesus.

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Wow. I am wonderfully amazed you see this! Praise God, bro!

It is not about the second coming. Jesus said what the Father's House was in the same discourse when He said the FATHER DWELT IN HIM.

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When Paul said absence from the Body means presence with the Lord, this proves there is and never was soul sleep.

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Sorry Steve and Mike but Paul got THIS from THAT:

15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Also if one would simply think about verse 18.

He does not comfort them by saying "your loved ones are now in Heaven rejoicing at the throne".

Nope. Not one word about it. The only hope or comfort he gives them about the DEAD are the words he uses in verses 15-18. Just like Yeshua said. He will come again and receive us to himself that we may be always with him.

Oh what a great proof text it would be if Paul had told this Church what you all believe! But alas all thats there is what HE WROTE. So instead we place this in the soul sleep category where it belongs.

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

No, Paul did not get this from that. You are holding to a shallow old tradition, bro., in all due respect.

the same word translated as MANSIONS is translated ABODE in the same chapter of John 14!

WE are the MANSIONS or ABODES... once IN CHRIST, the Father's House. Where Christ IS, not WILL BE, is the actual words.

Where was Christ? In the position of SONSHIP, housing the Father. He said WHERE I AM, before He ever left them!

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

Paul did not say absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he was WILLING TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:8-10

Pauls teaching is we labor to be accepted by Yeshua. Look at the context of WHEN.

Is our spirit rejoicing in Heaven for hundreds of years without knowing whether it has been accepted by God? What if in your belief the things that were done in the flesh were evil? Does that Spirit then have to descend and go to Hell?

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

He would not be wiling to experience something if it was not possible. The context shows that Paul believed death would cause absence from his body, and in turn, he would be present with the Lord. He treated it as an actual choice, not wishful thinking.

It is not saying anything like that, in my view. It is saying that Paul wished in his then-present state of being in body to be absent from the body and be with the Lord. He laboured IN THE BODY, so that he would be acceptable to Christ whether remaining in the body and continuing to work or absent from the body.

He said that being at home in the body is absence from the Lord. So it only stands to contextual reason that if he is absent from the body he is THEN present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6-9 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (9) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


He said those are the only two options. He did not leave anything open for a third one of being absent from the body for soul sleeping, etc. The contextual flow of language is that one is present with the Lord when absent from the body according to verse 8 BECAUSE Paul already said, "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."

Of course. Yes. Consciously.

In John 14, why did Christ pray that WHERE HE WAS, they would be??? He was standing right there with the disciples, and he did not say WHERE HE WILL BE, he prayed they would also be, as though it was future tense. So, if he stood there with them physically and said, WHERE I AM, then He must have been speaking of a status position, as Bro Epley said.

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No insult intended, but many believers need to get themselves a more modern translation of the Bible, because they are obviously messing up the context when they misread the version they are reading.

Soul sleep is simply nullified in 2 Cor 5.

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I did not make my point clear enough Mike.

I asked:

My fault. What I was getting at is since the judgment seat of Christ will be for some souls several thousand years from the time they died they are supposed to be in Heaven in bliss without yet being judged for what they did in the flesh all that time?

Suppose THEN when the judgment seat of Christ convenes and then they ARE judged what if there works are found to be bad? Will they then have to leave the glory of Heaven they have been living in and go to Hell where they should have been anyway?

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

So until modern versions came along soul sleep doctrine was ok?

Anyway lets once again go though the context of 2 Cor. 5.

This is often used against soul sleep teaching. However it fails to take the CONTEXT of 2 Cor.

Paul teaches:

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. The Corinthians. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.

To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

What does Paul mean by asking the question "Oh death where is thy sting" and "Oh grave where is thy victory".

The sting of death and the victory over the grave is so plainly LINKED TO THE RESURRECTION.

The erroneous doctrine of eternal life apart from the resurrectionhas no meaning in this light. Until then death has the victory according to Paul.

Christians today only think the grave is already defeated. It is something taken by faith. Yet its reality is NOT UNTIL THIS:

54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

Okay, I get what you are saying now. Thanks.

The white throne is not to decide if saints are saved or not. That is already settled. Yes, they are saved, long before the white throne judgment. They do not attend the white throne judgment to enter glory with Christ. Our sins have gone before us, since we believed, whereas others' sins follow them.


The judgment seat of Christ is for rewards for those saved, since the saints saved are not judged to see if they are saved. We are only judged according to our works for the sake of rewards or lack thereof, not to enter heaven or not.

Paul spoke of the white throne in referring to judgment for the deeds done in the body. But this is not a judgment for heaven or hell. So, no, the spirit of the saved believer who lacks deeds does not go to hell. Christ spoke of those for whom He will be ashamed before His Father, and those for whom He will be proud. Neither are lost, though. It's just that some did little or nothing for the Kingdom except serve as part of the Sunday Church furniture.

This acceptance of the soul is not acceptance into glory but acceptance to receive great rewards.

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No. The way you misunderstood my statement is a perfect example of what I was saying. I think you misunderstand biblical statements, and thereby require a more modern english rendering of the passages so you do not misunderstand them.

Some get by fine with Old English, KJV. Others do not.

The KJV is great! I love it! But some folks are messed up by it and misread it due to its archaic language.

So, you are correct in your words above FOR SOME PEOPLE who misread the KJV.

The KJV is right! But if you misread it, you get a wrong idea.

Soul sleep was always false doctrine.

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This is contrary to the letter and intent of Pauls words in 2 Cor. 5:

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Cor. 5:8-11

Verse 9 says the reason we labor is to be ACCEPTED OF HIM.

Verse 10 tells WHEN that happens one way or the other.

Verse 11 warns Believers of the TERROR OF THE LORD.

Why warn them about the TERROR OF THE LORD if they are going to be accepted having done nothing for the kingdom? Especially when Paul said he LABORED TO BE ACCEPTED of the Lord. Not labored for rewards.

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No no no. Mortality and life is speaking about the BODY ALONE. the entire chapter is about THE BODY. THE TABERNACLE of mortal flesh contrasted from the HOUSE of immortal flesh.

The SUBJECT of the passage is the PHYSICAL BODY.

Correct. And that is not instant heaven FOR THE BODY, but 2 Cor 5 speaks of instant heaven FOR THE SOUL AND SPIRIT ALONE. The body is the subject of both 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5. We must read them together.

The reason 2 Cor 5 says we are NAKED without the body is because the soul and spirit of a person BELONG IN A BODY. And while ABSENT FROM THE BODY, the soul and spirit is naked.

There would be no such thing as being absent from the body if you were correct. This shows you misread the context. Absence from the body is a state of NAKEDNESS. And this is the case for however long after death the coming of the Lord is.

MORTAL Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. So the BODY shall be changed to an immortal one. But in the meantime, after salvation if one dies before the rapture, ONE IS NAKED without a body.

If you read 2 Cor 5 carefully, you will find this is what Paul said.

Because it is not God's will for us to be naked without a body, He has promised us that we shall be CLOTHED UPON at the time of the rapture with a HOUSE that is IMMORTAL FLESH. But in the meantime, Paul knew that his death would cause him to be absent from the body, rendering him NAKED, which he preferred even though he knew that Christ's coming would grant him an immortal HOUSE so that he would not be naked. But should he die before the Lord come, being with the Lord was awesome enough to be absent from and naked of his body!

...FOR THE BODY, though. Not the soul nor spirit. Our souls and spirits are ALREADY IMMORTAL since salvation.

continued...

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

I know the context. I am very aware of it. But you are misreading it. There would be no option to be absent from the body if you were correct. Absence from the body means NAKEDNESS of the soul and spirit. The BODY is what clothes the soul and spirit. WE are soul and spirit, CLOTHED BY A BODY. And WE can be absent from the body. This means soul and spirit is apart from the body. Nothing says anything about soul sleep in mortal death here in the context. It actually is saying the opposite.

Nobody said it was given at death, except full preterists. The resurrection of the dead in 1 Cor 15 is a yet-future rapture when we gain new bodies. In the meantime, we ARE NAKED without a body, by being ABSENT FROM THE BODY, when we die and are with the Lord. At the resurrection, we rejoin the soul and spirit to the body, but the body is rendered IMMORTAL then.

This has nothing to do with saying we are sleeping in soul while absent from the body.

You are missing something very important. WE ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, according to 1 John.

Our souls and spirits are already immortal. Only our BODIES (tabernacles) are mortal. And when we read of mortality putting on immortality, that is not speaking of the soul or spirit but of the MORTAL BODY in which we presently groan. You are not seeing the distinction of the "WE" from the body in 2 Cor 5. Paul spoke of himself as SOMETHING IN A BODY. And he can be ABSENT FROM THE BODY. What is absent from the body? PAUL. And since PAUL is distinguished from his BODY by the vocabulary he used, when he speaks of mortality putting on immortality he is speaking of the BODY.

This is in reference to the BODY, since 1 John clearly says we already have eternal life.

Actually immortal life IS NOT the same as eternal life. Something eternal HAS NO BEGINNING, brother. Many people forget or are unaware of that . Eternal means NO BEGINNING nor ending. Not just no ending.

When we understand what ETERNAL LIFE is, we realize it is something we CAN HAVE, in these of HAVING GOD, because ONLY GOD is eternal. "We" cannot be made eternal because we had a beginning whether we live forever or not.

NO, brother. You jumped far too quick and formulated your belief about this issue before you even knew of the fact that ETERNAL LIFE is GOD, and is no beginning nor ending. Also, THE CONTEXT IS THE BODY in 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15. You need to more thoroughly research these issues before you jump to false conclusions based on lack of full awareness of the beliefs about this.

1) Since the BODY is what is made immortal at the resurrection, and not the soul nor spirit...

2) and since the context of 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 is the BODY...

3) and since Paul said we are NAKED when outside the body and absent from it...

4) and since 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 together agree and do not conflict...

5) the resurrection is when 2 Cor 5 is fulfilled when we receive a new body, while in the meantime we are absent from ANY body after death, and present with the Lord.

He refers to the physical bodily death ceasing at the resurrection, when no one ever mortally dies again.

EXACTLY! But between death and the resurrection, the soul and spirit is absent from the body and with the Lord.

You totally miss the context of the BODY being the subject, as well as mistaken what eternal life means.

I agree! But we are absent from the body and with the Lord after death until death is eradicated and our bodies are made immortal, and rejoin those bodies.

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But accepted in what sense and in what category of acceptance????

We are saved before we ever die, and that is what Paul stated about some men's sins follow them while others' go before them. My sins went before me to judgment, and my judgment is not going to regard heaven or hell, but rewards or none.

But terror for what? Acceptance in what sense? You ASSUME it is heaven or hell, but it is not.

We labour for rewards, OR ELSE YOU PROMOTE SALVATION BY WORKS.

The moment a person obeys Acts 2:38 THEY ARE SAVED without any works!

That Judaic origins of names and such-like deal you are into has seemingly taken you to salvation by works!

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Which translation are you recommending?

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

I always recommend KJV above all, but there are some good ones that are modern in language, and really break it down easily, but you still have to watch out for some errors.

Contemporary English Version (CEV) is easy to follow.

International Standard Versions (ISV) is good.

THE MESSAGE is extremely easy to follow! lol

Analytical Literal Translation (ALT) is like the Amplified, but from the correct manuscripts. (NO ERRORS IN THIS ONE!)

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Thanks, good I have these, so no problem. I was hoping you didn't pull something out of your hat that I didn't want. lol I use my KJV as my base.

Good thread, BTW.

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Pressing On,

That was meant for me. Everyone else I guess can handle The KJV.

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How do you figure that?

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How comical! The poor naked spirit sitting in Heaven for thousands of years groaning for its body!

Mike the truth is that it is in THESE MORTAL BODIES that we groan! I think you must be the founder of this doctrine.

I see nothing in 1 Cor. 15 about the spirit and soul rejoining the body at resurrection.

I do see where Paul says that THE DEAD will be made ALIVE at the second coming!

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:22-23

Reading it as it is reveals those who are DEAD being MADE ALIVE.

We are willing to be absent from THIS BODY and present with the Lord. Paul says when it will happen. When we are MADE ALIVE at the second coming.

Wrong Michael. We have the downpayment of it.

13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:13-14

That is like this:

22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Romans 8:22-25

The firstfruits and the earnest (Holy Spirit) stands in for eternal life until we receive it.

Again we see that its in our MORTAL BODY that we are groaning.

Souls are immortal?

29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29

Peter said DAVID was both dead and buried in the grave.

It was DAVID. Not merely Davids body! Nothing about him being an immortal soul.

Thats your words. Here is Pauls.

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Those who seek IMMORTALITY receive what? ETERNAL LIFE!

Mike I never JUMPED to quick about this. I taught the same doctrine you now teach for 16 years. When I was challenged to look at another view point little by little the old traditional doctrine of instant Heaven vanished away. It could not stand against the WEIGHT OF SCRIPTURE I found.

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Lets look at it again Mike. The writing of Paul.

9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Cor. 5:9-11

If I were reading this with no preconceived idea on the basis of verse 9 I would say he was laboring to BE ACCEPTED BY CHRIST.

The writing of receiving for the things done in the body good or bad is linked to the TERROR OF THE LORD.

You are accusing me of salvation by works. Paul seems to be saying that our acceptance at the judgment will depend on our works.

Actually this is all through scripture. Here is a sample:

12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


What you are promoting is an incomplete concept. We are certainly saved by faith. Yet tho that be true we will be judged by our works proving the sincerity of our faith.

If as Paul says we will be receiving for the deeds done in the body good or bad its obvious to me those who have done bad works will be cast into the lake of fire.

Consider the TERROR OF THE LORD.

I will not be teaching ANYONE they can enter the Kingdom of Yeshua the Messiah if they are doing bad works.

Oh yes and how do you suppose the fact that I use the original name of the Messiah produces salvation by works?

Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep
 

Here is more proof.

When will we receive eternal life?

28: Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Mark 10:28-30

Eternal life is granted IN THE WORLD TO COME.

Guess what? That world has not yet come.