I thought They were one???
 

I noticed something in scripture this morning that I have read many, many times and never noticed. Please explain Matt 12:32 if you can.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neihther in this world, neither in the world to come."


I thought the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one. That being true how can you blaspheme the Son and be forgiven but not the Holy Ghost?

This seems confusing???

Re: I thought They were one???
 

It was brought up in a discussion in Deep Waters, a while back.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...read.php?t=310

Not sure a good answer was found, though!

Re: I thought They were one???
 

I dunno.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Maybe it's talking about the man verses the spirit of the man?????

Re: I thought They were one???
 

I am not a theologian, but I always thought in this case the Son of Man was speaking of the Man - Jesus - and the Holy Ghost was speaking of the Spirit of God. Therefore, those who brought charges against Jesus while He was on earth- forgiveness was available to them. But, blasphemy against the Holy Ghost - there is no forgiveness. Just my take on this scripture.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Thanks Timmy I had not seen that thread, but it did NOT answer my question. In fact, it seems YOU brought up the same question. :)

Re: I thought They were one???
 

But are they not one?

Re: I thought They were one???
 

So now we can separate them from being one?

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Maybe someone that has access to JP can ask them over there the question and report an answer. :)

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Basic oneness 101. Different offices. It's the same point made when Jesus is both God and man. God is not a man.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Right. So, if you're gonna blaspheme God, make sure He's in the right "office" at the time. Or else.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

I have to clarify this verse because it is very vague...You said "I thought they were one"....my question is one what? You thought they were one what?

Re: I thought They were one???
 

one what?

Example...we speak of the Unites States being "One nation under God" when we say the United States is One we mean it is many states that together form one Nation.

One what? One person? One God? One thing? One WHO? One Nature? One Flesh? One Spirit? One manifestation?

Re: I thought They were one???
 

From being one WHAT?

You can't separate Father, Son and Spirit.

Father is Spirit. Spirit is HOW Father exists in His Deity.

Son is Spirit and Flesh. Spirit is the Divine nature of the Father ontologically united with the Human nature.

The Son is for all intents and purposes, fully human. He has a human nature. In the incarnation the Son empties Himself of Deity, not that he stops being God but that means he "puts aside" his diety temporarily for use. He does not use it so he can truly be that humbled human servant Paul talks of.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

:snapout

Re: I thought They were one???
 

You make a good point here, but this is also what many trinity folks teach 3 seperate offices in one, which is also what many OP teach as well. I do know there are a few trinitiarns that teach three separate people, but most I know don't believe that.

So my question is since we believe Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one, how can one be forgiven and the other not?

Is one part of the 3 offices, if you will, have a higher ranking?

Re: I thought They were one???
 

The Trinity is NOT three offices in one...again the question still is in one what? A lot of people don't really know theology.

Trinitarians teach there is one God...numerically one God. That God is one essence (Spirit), being and Divine nature. That One God being is Tri PERSONAL....three persons.

An office is nothing more than a title. You can have the office of being a mother, sister and admin....That isn't even Oneness either.

For in Oneness the Son is more than a title. The Son has a real tangable existence.

Again you said
since we believe Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one

And I ask...one what? I don't believe Father, Son and Holy ghost is one

I believe there is One personal God whose existence is Transcendent and Divine in nature.

He was incarnate and became the Son by adding a Human nature to His own person, which made him essentially human like us, yet without sin.

That answers the question. To blaspheme the Son and it not being held against you is to take into consideration that the Son has a human nature. God, Spirit...Father...is God existing ONLY in His Diety apart from the human nature

Re: I thought They were one???
 

sure they are one

one means united, like a husband and wife are one
or like the people at the tower of Babel were one

Re: I thought They were one???
 

The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son?

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Notice that the warning is incomplete. It leaves us hanging, as to whether blaspheming the Father is forgivable. Well, I, for one, am not taking any chances: whenever I blaspheme, the target will be neither the Spirit nor the Father! :winkgrin

Re: I thought They were one???
 

If I were to tell you that I am the Son of God, what would you think of me? You'd think I was an idiot, a blasphemer, a devil and so one, right? And, you'd be right.

Jesus, during His earthly ministry, was man. He was mere flesh and blood. True, He was the manifestation of God in the flesh but He was, for all intents and purposes, a man. I think it was because He was man that He was willing to forgive those that spoke against Him out of ignorance. Being human, how could He expect people to believe Him to be anything but a human? For this reason He said this:

Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Once His Message had been delivered and His Ministry fulfilled, He held people accountable to His Word. He had revealed Himself to them throughout His Life, Death and Resurrection- now, under the leadership and guidiance of the Holy Ghost to lead them to fulness of Truth, they were held accountable for their words and actions for or against the Holy Spirit. Once Jesus was completely and undeniably revealed as God manifested in the flesh by the Holy Ghost, any word spoken against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven, for it is the Spirit of God that finally and completely reveals to us the divinity of Jesus.

Its like this:

A man dressed in "street clothes" walks up to me and says "You're under arrest". I look at him like hes a fruitcake and walk off. He grabs me by the arm and flashes His badge at me. I then recognize his authority. People did not recognize Jesus' authority until He fulfilled His Life, Death and Resurrection and the Holy Ghost was given. Jesus waited until He had completed His life, death and resurrection to say this:"ALL power (authority) in heaven and earth is given unto me..." He "flashed" His authority by giving us the inward dwelling Spirit of Christ to reveal all truth unto us.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

So the Father is Spirit.

Who is the Spirit as in the Holy Spirit.

I have Jesus Christ in me, "the hope of Glory."

Do I have my Heavenly Father in me too?

Re: I thought They were one???
 

God is one. Not 3 persons.
He's revealed himself as the Father in creation. The Son in redemption. And as the Holy Spirit in the Church today. Not 3 persons. There aren't 2 spirits and a Son in the Godhead.

Jesus has both a human nature and a divine nature. In light of that we have to look at the various aspects of His life in respects to his humanity and his divinity.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Lawyers wrote that in...;):ursofunny

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Yes

Notice these words of Jesus to His disciples in the upper room before His death:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Y et a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:15-23

Every believer has Jesus in his heart.
Every believer has the Holy Ghost in his heart.
Every believer has the Father in his heart.
Yet, only one Spirit dwells in our hearts --the Spirit of the Lord, or the Spirit of YHWH, or Christ in us, or the Spirit of Jesus Christ, .......

Re: I thought They were one???
 

John chapter 17 is a good chapter to see the relationship Jesus had with the Father.

(Spirit). The Father (Deity,Spirit, God) was glorified in the Son and the Son glorified

was glorified in the Father.

Jesus prayed for Himself in the first 5 verses. He prayed for his disciples in verse 6-19.

Jesus prayed for all those who would believe in Him through the disciples/Apostles word,

beginning with verse 20. The Father gave those that were His to the Son, so that the

world might know that He sent the Son because the Father had loved the Son before

the foundation of the world.

For God to receive glory there needs to be something for Him to be glorified in and

through. If a beautiful lamp has no light, where's the glory. Where is the glory displayed

of a lovely stained glass window if there is no light to shine through it. For God who

commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the

light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Jesus Christ. There must be

means or place for the glory of God to be displayed. Radiant faces come from what is

burning inside.

God was IN Christ, reconciled the world unto Himself. God IS a Spirit and came near to

His people, but He needed someone to house Him. Jesus served as the Father's House.

The glory was in the Son! Spirit had been transferred into the Son. He who

has the Father has the Son. Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Jesus said on the Cross, "It is finished" He had finished the work the Father had sent

him to do. At an appointed time, he went back to where he came from. He had appointed

the apostles a kingdom, just as the Father had appointed him one. We are labours to-

gether WITH GOD. The Kingdom of God had not fully come when Jesus first

came to earth.

Jesus told his disciples that he was WITH them, but would be IN them.

The Kingdom of God was on its way. Jesus went back to where he came from and poured

out the Promise of the Father into those obedient, willing vessels.

The Kingdom of God is in us as it was in them. His glory can only be seen

in the faces of God's people. The Kingdom of God is in the hearts of His

people.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: I thought They were one???
 

The Spirit is the essence of God's Being.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Well of course you do, Mike.

(Eph 4:6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


But this absurd Trinity doctrine makes some folk think they have the Holy Spirit -- but not the Spirit of the Father at the same time ...even though the scriptures tell us plainly that "there is one spirit" (Eph 4:4).


The Spirit of the Father is not a different Spirit from "the Holy Spirit".

(Matt 10:19-20) 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


(Mark 13:11) 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Sometimes, I have to be reminded if the truth of God's Word.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Well, I hope that post helped a little.

I know it helped me. Made me go back and dig up some scriptures I hadnt looked at for a while. :)

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Praxeas the only way I know to describe one is: I am one person. I am a daughter, wife, and sister.

God is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and is one.

I'm not sure how you are coming up with a different spirit for the Father and the Holy Ghost, unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

TRF you make some good points here. Can you explain the scripture in question? How can one be blasphemed and the other not???

Re: I thought They were one???
 

I'll be two-ness before I go back to three-ness.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

We'll I cant claim to have THE explanation, but I'll explain how I've always understood it, in a way that makes sense to my mind. So here goes...

Keep in mind the context of Matt 12:32 . Jesus had just been accused casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub (Satan). But I'll get back to that in a minute...

God we know is one, but his 3 primary operations by which he's known are as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration and in his operation in the church.

These are three primary offices/roles/manifestations we see from the same one God. When people generically say "God" we're normally referring to Him in His primary role as father, creator and/or overseer of creation. So if one says something harsh against "God" [such as: "God is so evil to cause that earthquake"] we might say he's blaspheming , but I dont think we could say he's blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, even though the Holy Spirit is the divine nature of God himself. In this case the person isnt speaking regarding that particular manifestation/operatin of God . (Hope that makes sense so far...)

Similarly if someone speaks against Jesus or his redemptive work [such as: "his death on the cross mean't nothing"] they are speaking blasphemously but that wouldn't be blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (for the same reason as above).

But if someone says something like: "I visited that Pentecostal church. That speaking-in-tongues stuff ain't real. That's the devil", you might then say that that person has blasphemed, or is in danger of blaspheming, against the Holy Spirit.... because he's spoken pointedly against a specific manifestation/working of God.. that is, his manifestation/operation as "the Holy Spirit".

I think the scripture context gives support to this understanding. Again, if you go back to the Matthew 12 setting, where Jesus brought up the issue: Clearly, we know he was operating under the Spirit's anointing:

"God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him." (Acts 10:38)

...but the Pharisees accused him of operating by the power of the devil/Beelzebub. Clearly Jesus felt they had blasphemed against the Holy Ghost, or maybe were in danger of doing so.

...which of course led to Jesus's response...

24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Thus, not all blasphemy against God is specifically blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, even though God is one, and the Holy Spirit is God. I don't think theres any contradiction or inconsistency there at all.

Just my 2 cents. Hope that helps a bit.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

(sigh) lol.

I already noted that God is not a man. Speaking against the man was never the same as the Deity. For the same reason Jesus told the rich young ruler to not call any man good, when he called Jesus good.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

No. But the PERSON of the Father is the PERSON of the Son.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Anyone having problems with this, read THE ONENESS OF GOD by Bernard. He adequately answers all these issues succinctly.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

You misunderstood what I said. I never said the Spirit of the Father is a different one than the Holy Ghost.

Unfortunately what you say here for theology is very vague. It does not mean anything. It does not explain how God can be Father and Son or how Father and Son are distinct.

As far as one, you seem to be saying then that God is one person that has three roles. See Trinitarians say "Father, Son and Spirit are one".

You asked a specific question based on "how can this be, if they are one"...that shows a lack of understanding of theology. Not trying to be insulting or anything but I find many OPs and Trinitarians really don't know theology. They know sound bites and repeat them but don't really understand the theology that spawned those sound bites

Re: I thought They were one???
 

Yoiu may blaspheme the SON of Man and they did saying He was born of fornication-calling him a winebibber etc.- however if they spoke against the Power and Spirit of the Holy Ghost operating through him like saying He cast out devils by the power of the devil it was unforgiveable. Thus they could speak against His humanity but NOT His divinity.

Re: I thought They were one???
 

[QUOTE=Steve Epley;630462]Yoiu may blaspheme the SON of Man and they did saying He was born of fornication-calling him a winebibber etc.- however if they spoke against the Power and Spirit of the Holy Ghost operating through him like saying He cast out devils by the power of the devil it was unforgiveable. Thus they could speak against His humanity but NOT His divinity.[/QUOTE]

That seems to be the consensus.