Where Are the Dead?
 

I'm not trying to get a debate going on "soul sleep." I thought I would post this to show the position of a UPC teacher whose article is published in the current Pentecostal Herald.

This article is from pages 10 and 11 of the December 2008 issue of The Pentecostal Herald which arrived in my mail on November 24, 2008.

Where Are the Dead?
by David Norris

Some years ago I took a university class that examined how philosophers sought to prove the existence of God. The course surveyed numerous philosophers, and in the end we read a book written by the professor himself. As we began to discuss his book, the professor made a heart rendering profession, a confession, no doubt influenced by the recent loss of his wife to cancer. He offered, “If I knew that there was something after this life, something that made sense of all the suffering in this world, then I am quite certain I could believe in God.” Such a statement is telling. The professor’s whole belief system was linked to his view of life after death. Arguably, every religious tradition must speak to the question of suffering and must in some sense address the question of life after death. Further, people do not merely ask, “Is there life after death?” They want specific details as to the reality that a person experiences when he dies. Significantly, not only does the Bible give considerable attention to this important question, it is not too much to say that the Bible proclaims life beyond this world as the ultimate reality.

The Old Testament provides an important foundation as to what happens to people who die. There was an understanding among the Jewish people in covenant relationship with God that they would “rest” with their fathers. (See Genesis 47:30; Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12). Further, the Old Testament does not merely speak of death only in terms of “rest.” The Hebrew word that refers to the place of the dead is “sheol.” Some times the word is translated “pit”; other times, it is translated “grave”; often it is translated as “hell.” Yet, even when rendering the word “sheol” as “hell,” the translators of the King James Version did not intend to present sheol merely as a universal place of torment. Rather, the teaching of the Old Testament is that all dead, whether good or bad, went to sheol.

Jesus taught in some detail about the abode of the dead in Luke chapter 16. He explained how that in the Old Testament afterlife, both the good and bad existed n a single place. First, Jesus described the death of a man named Lazarus, about whom He reported no moral failing. Jesus explained that Lazarus was carried b angels to a place of comfort, a place which He termed “Abraham’s bosom.” Jesus contrasted the fate of Lazarus with another man, a rich man whose miserly ways were apparently indicative of a broader lifestyle wholly given to selfish living. When the rich man died, he too was brought to this same abode of the dead, but there was a considerable gulf between where Lazarus was being comforted and where the rich man undoubtedly was suffering. Jesus made it clear that not only was the chasm between the rich man to Lazarus not negotiable, He explained as well that the chasm between the abode of the dead and the place of the living was not negotiable either. Neither the rich man nor an emissary could return to earth with a message.

There are several points that become clear by Jesus’ teaching. First, those who die have consciousness. When the Bible speaks of the “sleep” of one who has died, it has reference to his body. Certainly from a human perspective, it hardly seems possible to speak of the bodies of those who die as “sleeping.” Physical bodies decay and disintegrate into the dust of the earth. Yet, so certain is the power of God to reconstitute things that have perished that the Bible can refer to the death of our bodies as merely “sleep;”

There is a second important point that can be understood from this teaching by Jesus: what happens in this life affects life after death. For some, this idea is so distasteful that they argue that one cannot take seriously the teaching of Jesus in this instance because He was merely telling a parable. Such a critique is unfounded, however, because even when Jesus told parables, He only narrated events that had their basis in fact. He told of farmers and bridegrooms and widows who needed to be avenged. He told of things that existed He never created realities that were not, in fact, true.

It is God who appoints “unto men once to die” (Hebrews 9:27), and it is God who closes the curtain between the dead and the living. (See Ecclesiastes 9:5) Yet, some people seek to bypass God’s prerogatives by attempting to gain knowledge of the dead through alternate measures. The Bible makes clear that fortunetellers, seances, and necromancers are not to be visited. (See Leviticus 19:31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:11). Those who attempt to cross into the hereafter by such means are actually trafficking in the realm of evil spirits. Only one thing can be expected: deceit. Real formation about the state of the dead an reliably come from only one source: the Bible.

While the Old Testament offers only glimpses of life after death, the New Testament is replete with such information. The difference between the two testaments occurs for a very important reason; while the Old Testament anticipates only the effect of Jesus’ work on Calvary, the New Testament realize its fruition. Calvary’s victory was total and complete. Not only was Jesus’ death effectual in taking away our sin; it was also effectual in loosening Satan’s power in the afterlife. Underlying the Gospel narrative is a conflict between Satan and Jesus (Matthew 4:1-11), a conflict that Jesus would win. (See John 14:30). Sadly, prior to the cross, Satan consistently tormented people to fear death. (See Hebrews 2:14-15). The triumph of the cross allowed that because of the work of Jesus, satan’s power over death was broken. (See Hebrews 2:15). When Jesus was dying, He proclaimed, “It is finished.” He was not only speaking as the One sacrificed Himself in our stead; Jesus’ proclamation was also like that of a conquering general who had defeated his foe.

The New Testament records significant events associated with the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. The psalmist prophesied that before Jesus ascended into heaven, He would first descend triumphantly to sheol --hades in the New Testament-- and ascend, taking with Him a whole host of those who had been “captive” (Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8-10). Thus, when the victory of the cross was accomplished, Jesus descended to the abode of the dead and boldly proclaimed (“preached”) His total victory over Satan (1 Peter 3:19). In demonstration of His conquest, He made an open show of the devil, mocking and humiliating him. (See Colossians 2;15). Jesus then claimed for Himself the keys of death and hell. (See Revelation 1:18). Finally, Jesus ascended to paradise, but He did not do so alone. Jesus took with Him those who in the Old Testament had lived in covenant relationship with God.

Twenty times in the Old Testament it refers to descending to sheol or as sheol being “down.” in the New Testament, when writers described paradise the referred to it as up. (See 2 Corinthians 12:4). Whereas the Old Testament was oblique in its pronouncements o life after death, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would that day be with Him in paradise. (See Luke 23:43.) Indeed, the New Testament celebrates that those who die will immediately be ushered into the presence of the Lord. Paul professed, “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8).

Certainly the Bible has more to say about life after death than what we can address in this short article. And even if we would survey all the biblical passages related to life after death, there are still some things that we cannot know this side of the curtain of death. (See 1 Corinthians 1;12.) Yet, what we do know is enough. We do know that this life is merely the vestibule of eternity, the antechamber to the hereafter. We know that compared to eternity, even severe and prolonged suffering is just “light affliction ... for a moment” (2 Corinthians 4:17). And finally, we know that the Bible’s invitation to faith is actually an invitation to hope. If you are a hurting person, the church is still inviting, Jesus is still saving , and heaven is still waiting for you.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

I believe that the saints under the New Covenant immediately pass into the presence of the Lord upon death. The unrighteous dead are immediately confined in Hell. When all are resurrected from the dead all men will then stand before God and receive their final judgment. The saints pass into a blessed eternity with their reward, the unrighteous are cast into the Lake of Fire.

That's my personal belief.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

If he taught Soul Sleep, he would have not been published at all.

He would not even have been able to hold a license with the UPC.

How else would the article have been written?

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

When I came to Ohio in 1957 my pastor was Bro. F.E. Curts. He was Dist. Supt. of the UPC Ohio District. I went to that church until 1963 or 64. Bro. Curts taught soul sleep. I don't know if he ever had any problem with it. He was Dist. Supt. until 1968 or 69.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

What about 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

What is commonly caused soul sleep was taught by many pioneers such as G. T. Haywood, Robert Tobin, R. C. Lawson and I believe S. G.Norris?

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

They are allowed to teach soul sleep. They cannot be part of the group tho if they teach the Biblical doctrine of the death of the wicked soul ****annihilation.

I know one who knows it but values his fellowship with them to much IMO to teach it openly.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

I agree totally.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

Interesting note,

I was speaking with a coworker yesterday about death and being with the Lord. He actually combined the theory of soul sleep and being with the Lord. He virtually said that he thought when a person died --it was like they were instantly in the rapture. He stated that because God was eternal and was not limited in time, then He did not always do things that fit in a linear time frame. Since yesterday, I have been calling him Mr. Quantum Physics.

Just a thought, not saying that I prescribe to it.:whistle

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

I know some UPC & ALJC ministers who beleive that when a person dies they go to be with the Lord, as in heaven. That's not what I understand from reading my bible. I do beleive a persons spirit goes back to the Lord at death and the soul rest until time of the rapture or time of judgement.
Why would God send anyone to heaven or hell at time of death only to be called back to be judged during the white throne judgement? There would be no need for it.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

MIcheal there were men in the UPC that taught annihilation of the wicked S. G. Norris was one of them and the name slips me but a leader from Eastern Canada. On the application it asked both.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

Bro. Epley,
If I may ask, where do you stand on the teaching of the annihilation of the lost at time of death or anytime thereafter.
I teach that a soul is going to live on thoughout enternity somewhere, heaven or hell, after judgement, but not annihilated.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

I do NOT believe in the doctrine of annihilation of the wicked they will eternally die in the lake of fire where their torment will never cease.
I do not believe the dead are conscious after death. The souls of the righteous go into the presenceof God to rest and the wicked are dead unconscious until the resurrection.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

I agree with you Bro. Epley.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

Call the Law.:aaa

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

Bro. Norris taught that hell/hades is like jail, the white throne judgment is like court or a trial, and the lake of fire is like prison or the penitentiary. The wicked are held in hades/hell until the second resurrection. When their bodies are reunited with their inner person (soul and spirit) they are judged for the deeds done in the body.

The term hell is some times used for hades and some times used for the lake of fire.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

I agree also. Thank you.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

Bro. Sam,
I have heard this before.
I agree with Bro Epley.
If a person was held in hades/hell after they died why the day of judgement.
I think I'm saying it correct.
My point is I have a hard time beleiving that during the period of grace we live that anyone has been sent on to heaven or hell at their time of death.
Example, my grandfather dies, his spirit goes to God and he rest until judgement. He is not sent to heaven or hell or hades until then.
I have heard many preach and teach different.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

This is just one (of several) things that all do not completely agree upon.
We all have come to some conclusion based on what we have heard taught and what we've seen for ourselves. The main thing is to respect one another.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

Hmmm.... two judgments?

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

Respect to you Brother Epley.

They cannot 'eternally' die and be tormented at the same time, that would be eternal life if they never cease to be.

The lake of fire in Revelation is called the second death.

If you believe; "the wicked are dead unconscious until the resurrection."
Why then when their bodies are destroyed in Gehenna's fire would the 'soul' go on being tormented when the fires of Gehenna will burn out?

It is the smoke of the torment, not the torment itself that ascends up.

The scriptures concur

Where does the bible say this?

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

The Bible calls the Lake of Fire the second death and the wages of sin is death so it is eternal dying(my words) and yes the Bible teaches they are tormented eternally.Rev. 14:10
The body is NOT destroyed or annihilated in the the Lake of Fire it along with the soul is punished without end. Worm dieth NOT and the fire is NOT quenched. Everlasting punishment.

Re: Where Are the Dead?
 

Them that sleep in Jesus will Goid bring with Him.