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I have been pastoring for about 13 years. I was introduced to the Apostolic faith while in the Marine Corps, 30 years ago. The experience was beyond words and my testimony is genuine. I still serve the Lord today and love His Word beyond measure.

I've been married 28 years, raising 3 children in the Church. Through the years I have seen many falicies within religion and the Apostolic movement. I do love our message, but not always our means to deliver it. I don't feel my concepts are the result of that dreaded word, compromise, but an honest evaluation of the Church and God's Word.

Coming from the Catholic faith, spending 18 years in this organization and seeing the indescribable failure within the ministry, I feel it is wise to take a closer look at our own patterns and understand where we are going. We are human and can fail just like anybody else. We cannot rest upon the cynical idea that we can't fall like others. Even amongst our own ranks, we have seen the worst of the worst.

I have pleaded in prayer for understanding regarding our "hype" to get people excited about serving God in fullness. Our services and Conferences can be places where emotional drunkeness satisfies for the moment, but when reality strikes, we are left in the quandry of confusion and little strength. The fruit is a saved soul on Sunday night, but the rest of the week is nothing but a real world with real problems.

Looking at the Scripture, never do we find Jesus teaching to a crowd with all of this hype. Screaming, yelling, rolling on the ground, patting preachers on the back, all of this seems to point a direction not leading to God Himself. Pretty soon people don't come to church for anything but their "fix". I have family members and church members who have been injured at an altar call. Preachers shaking their head while praying for them, then losing their balance and fallling to the ground, hitting their head, is not God.

Sometimes crowds can be so loud, you can't hear what the preacher is saying and people are saying amen to something they can't even comprehend.

My burden is to draw nearer to Him and His ways, not the Apostolic church ways. We need to stop comparing church to a football game and remember, Church is a place that is sacred. Hoping pews and going into a frenzy won't save anybody. I think we need to take a closer look at the Word for direct guidence on proper Church order and conduct.

It's so funny how we criticize others on practice or form in their Faith, but then we do things that totally contradict sound doctrine. We must be cautious about this, because this leads to the worship of man. Coming to church is based on the fact, "Who can move me?". The Big Name Evangelist, or the Biggest Church, or where the Choir sings the best, that's where to go.

I've heard it said, if Jesus walked down the streets of our cities, most Apostolics would miss him. He was born in a manger (rejected) and died by his own (rejected). His life was always in question because he chose the low road.

God doesn't fill Apostolics; He fills those who hunger and thirst after righteousness. He sees the man who smites his breast with honesty about his sinful condition and need for help. Duty is the guide to complete integrity with God, not feeling. We must learn to go, even if we don't want to go.

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We certainly need to be introspective and honest with ourselves in this area.

There is nothing wrong with being emotional, however at the same time we need to be less demonstrative imo and we need to be biblical.

Unfortunately we have stressed the physical demonstrative in our ranks as evidence of somethings that it simply does not support.

We call it worship, the bible does not support that running the aisles is worship.

We portray it as being spiritual, the bible makes no claim.

We portray a service where in there was plenty of that kind of activity as "a move of God" and the bible does not support that.

I love what Bro Stoneking says...he said (paraphrase) "We come out of a service and we say 'we had a powerful service'...We may not have had a powerful service, it might have been a happy service but not necessarily powerful. When the power of God falls the blind see, the deaf hear, limbs grow back"

I don't know about you but some of the most powerful services made me weep, made me stand in awe...but never made me run around in circles.

Having said that, as I said earlier, nothing wrong with emotion...but emotions are joy, happiness, rejoicing....the lame man was healed and he came leaping for joy. He was not out of control. He was not shouting at the top of his lungs hystrically. He did not dance in a circle with his eyes closed until he tripped over someone or smacked them in the face.

It is possible that we have become so accustomed to that sort of antics that we associate it was the move of God and have become performace oriented. We have to have something happen. We expect something to happen and so like a Benny Hinn meeting where the real miracles are absent, we rely on visual effects. People in a BH meeting see someone falling over and because of where they come from they are conditioned to think something just happened.

They do the same thing, differently, in the RCC. They have candles, they have shiny objects, they have a lot of visual and audio stimulation...then they tell them the priest is working a miracle by turning the bread into flesh.

I have seen some of the most bizarre antics. I have seen someone literally leap into the baptismal tank..suit and all and come out dripping wet. Oh please don't tell me that was the will of God. That kind of thinking is what got us in the mess we are in. The Will of God is the Word of God. What we do turns outsiders off. Yet WE are supposed to be winning souls. Paul warned

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

and

1Co 14:40 But all things should be done decently and in order.

What is happening in our midst is excess IMO. I hear people, young people mostly, talk about "My worship"...worship is never about self. We should NEVER have pride in worship as if one's demonstrative display is somehow out doing someone elses. That is scary.

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I appreciate your transparency, NFS, and think you are on to something here. GOod post.

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AMEN!

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I concur.....sometimes we get into "EVENT" christianity. I have been caught up in that and yes, was left wanting. I am grateful for preachers and teachers who have brought me and others through this kind of thinking and have helped set our feet on solid ground.
I can get and do get very emotional at times, but never does it overshadow or take the place of a grounded "every day" walk with Jesus. Blessings

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Very good post. Thanks for sharing.

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Amen!

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I really like your thoughts on this.

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While our worship services can be loud and of the flesh, people showing off and out of order perhaps is the lesser of evils. I grew up in a Church with no musical instrumentation, no 'amens', no testimonies and no Spirit!

Our modern movement is still very young, and if the Lord will tarry, perhaps we will find in most areas diversification of 'mild, medium, and hot' services to conform to us. It does test my holy Ghost in not getting a bad spirit when I dislike what goes on in worship and other areas of an Assembly. Iron sharpens Iron, and if everything between us all were peachy-keen, how could we learn to love the unlovable?

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I like to think of my walk with the Lord in terms of a child in the maturing process.
As a new born we need to be held (always feeling those holy ghost goose bumps and that tingling freshness of the spirit) every day.
As we approach the toddler years we will wonder off from time to time but never to far always running back for that warm tingling feeling we need.
Than as we reach adulthood we rely more on the word and not so much the feelings.....
But as adults we return to our parents from time to time with a greater understanding of why we feel the way we do(we have now reached that place the times of refreshing that the bible speaks of).

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goodpost cliff. i am pastor now but evangelised for yrs. so i still carryy that flame buring on the inside for those wild out of control services..lovem always will ,there is a time for that at worship time but at preaching we need not just excitement but a true word and directional word with wisdom andf knowledge to guide and lead us in the right way ,, guys it takes it all ...take out wild worship as long as descent and innorder we be no different than the baptist and just as dead after a while!i preached in many a apostolic church the had dried up the 1st night of revival was a shock to them lol my screaming and going on but after the gifts was mveing by the spiriit of god and people getting healed i have heard the preacher say i aint seen them move like this in yrs. while wild worship is just iceing on the cake , it still goes with the meal , we dont have to shout the walls out every service but if we rule it out as simply i to mature now to do that we become dead and boreing!

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I think you are right on! God speaks usually in a still small voice and its hard to hear Him in a gymnasium type worship service. I think alot of visiting people have been run off when they saw a bunch of hype and were wanting to hear from God.

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Newborns SHOULD desire the sincere milk of the Word that they may grow thereby.

Jesus said to Nicodemus in John, chapter 3, that except a MAN be born of the water
and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. A man, not a little child,
not an infant, but a MAN.

Parents can produce a child, train it up, but there needs to be understanding.
A man needs to have had the training up and the WORD put into him from a "child
thou has known the holy scriptures that are able to make the wise unto salvation
through faith, which is in Christ Jesus". Jesus told his disciples that the WORDS he
spake unto them, they were spirit and they were life. In other words, HIS WORDS
to them were very important. They were LIFE-giving!

Why did Paul consider young Timothy to mentor. He saw the faith (that comes from
hearing and hearing the Word of God) in this young man. He had seen it in his mother,
Eunice and in his grandmother, Lois, and he knew it was in this young man. That he
had known the holy scriptures that would make him wise unto salvation which is in
Christ Jesus.

You cannot send your young people to Bible School and in three or four years come
out and know everything there is to know! And then to expect them to become the
pastor of those who have been in the Word and in the church for many, many years.
And we wonder why there is such conflict in the churches today. The young trying
to tell the elders when in most cases they have not been there.

I have never been a lot of places as far as being a world traveler. I have never been
out of the United States of America! I have seen photos, films, read books about a
lot of places, but I cannot tell you what it is to be places out of my country. Just have
not been there, done that. But there is one thing I know. From the time I was old
enough to comprehend much, we were trained to KNOW that the Word of God was
of the utmost importance in our home. As little children we were trained
to sit and listen each night to the word of God. Did we understand all we heard.
NO, we were trained to sit and listen. We were also trained to sing together with the
family. If we were seen not singing with the others, we were made to sing by ourselves.
No one wanted to have to sing by themselves, so we sang together.

What I am saying is, I have seen a problem with much noise and much activity in doing,
doing and doing. But NOT near enough of the HEARING and TEACHING of the WORD OF
GOD that is "able to make you wise unto salvation, which is in Chirst Jesus".

Our late father would say (after he started the work of God in our city in 1958), "IF all
the Word of God you hear, is what you hear me preach from the pulpit, it is not near
enough. You need to read your Bible for yourself". Get the Word IN you!!! Read your
Bible everyday". Pray everyday!

When Dad started that work in 1958, he worked a full-time job. He was the father of
11 children and still had time to take the family alter out of the home to a small store-
front building where he could share the Word with the community in which he would
raise his children. My eldest brother was already in college and I had just turned 19 yrs.
old. Had been out of school since May, 1957. There were 9 sibling younger than I. I
worked and helped out and thought nothing of doing it! It was just the right thing to
do. Someone said "Some people do the things they do because they feel it is the right
thing to do. But others do what they do because of who and what they are". As children
we are trained/taught to do what is right. Then later as mature adults, we do the things
we do because of who and what we have become.

We can shout and sing and have "victory marches" until we drop from exhaustion, but
if we "have no Word in us", we will not been victorious! If we do not have the WORD
of GOD IN us, sooner or later, what we have spent our time on, will be made manifest.
Could it be that what we have thought of, as a worldly people, has simply been a
"Wordless" people! It is an individual requirement. Mom and Dad can't always be
there with the Word. We Must have it IN ourselves. We MUST build our foundation
on the Solid Rock or it will not stand through the storms of life. It's not too late!
Cast ALL our cares upon Him today! Get into the Word today! His Word says to "Be still
and KNOW that I AM GOD".

Just some thoughts this morning. No offense intended.

Blessings,

Falla39

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Sis. Falla, you said a lot here!! Man cannot live by bread alone. If they do not eat the Word on a daily basis, they will suffer spirtual famine. Thanks for the wise words!

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Thanks for all of the response. Ultimately, I want a closer walk with Him, which comes through diligent searching of the heart and connecting that hunger to God's Word. Our answer to all things is in His Word.

That being said, some have responded to this post without giving us Scripture to ponder, so that we may find the way which pleases God, not man. My former pastor was convinced, we need His Word as the Compass because man will pollute the good with the bad, every time.

One example of this was the mount of transfiguration. The disciples became elated to the point they became misguided. Jesus had to calm the wave of emotion that was overtaking them, bringing them back to the valley of reality.

Like I said earlier, I've been in Pentecost a long time. I've seen honest blessing and horrible failure. The first Apostolic church I attended was "on fire". We were growing, we danced, we ran, we spoke in tongues, the place was exploding. But tragedy struck, when the pastor fell into adultery. The sheep scattered, the revival was abated, and people were confused.

When this happened my perspective on things began to change. As the years rolled by I realized that relationship with God was predicated on more than the "shout". If I didn't find God outside of the transfigured moment I would become pharasiacal and empty, bound by the ropes of false religion. I would do things just because everybody else did it.

As a pastor, I stear away from the dogmatic and the dramatic because human flesh loves these. I try to look upon people as God does, knowing He can move on them better than I can. I refuse to drive the Holy Ghost into people by some crazy prayer antic or bizzare style that isn't Scriptural. On the Day of Pentecost, God moved on that room.

This is what I want; God to move. We must understand, sometimes God chooses to shut up the womb. When this happens, we must be patient and not resort to some ill fashioned concept developed from the deapths of human reasoning.

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Why was Daniel so victorious! Could it be because he prayed as
often as he ate physically. If we could eat the Word and pray as
often as we feed our flesh, I can assure you we will be better
equipped to overcome the desires and works of the flesh!

Blessings,

Falla39

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Man, this is some good stuff!!!

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Thank you so much for your words NFS and everyone. I was just talking to some friends about this subject this evening and I am happy I am not the only one concerned about this. Some members think if they shout at every service they are spiritual. There is more to our walk with God than shouting at EVERY service. What happens when the music stops and they are faced with a trial? I go away from service at times feeling depressed because 1/2 the church was running in circles and I didn't feel the same. I get my blessing by crying instead of dancing. Just because a church does not constantly dance does not mean they have a "dead" church. You can feel a powerful move of God by an anointed song or message. I know David danced before the ark but David did not dance all the time yet he was a man after God's own heart.

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I know when we have a certain evagailist come to preach he starts screaming when he preaches and throws his jacket off . To me there is no need in all the screaming and running around you and preach your messege in a regular voice and people will still understand I don't even go to the service if this particular preacher will be there cause all the shouting really gets on my nerves specially as small as our church is. My parents go to a really large baptist church and the music is good and the preacher gets up there gives his messege and no screaming or yelling and those people are doing more to get people to god then most petecostal and apostolics. To me I do not see the need for the yelling and jumping and running.

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I Agree with one additional note often times the exterior tingles are replaced by an internal gripping of the heart that make one almost feel as if anymore of God's presence you would explode.

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Truth ,and sad to say alot of it is showmanship.[not all,some are genuinely excited]

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Brother, you've said a lot right there! I've been frustrated by all the screaming and carrying on as well. About a year and a half ago, my family started an inner-city mission type congregation to work in the "forgotten mission field." We had a preacher come to one of our services and the first words out of his mouth were screamed at us. We had people who knew nothing of God or His love beside what we had already told them, and they were very confused at why this man seemed so angry and red-faced if God was really that loving.

That is very scary! How ridiculous is that, and what glory did Jesus receive from this spectacle? More realistic is that this tank-jumper did more to draw attention to HIMSELF than anything else. That's not how we should behave. Our actions should lead people to see Christ high and lifted up, not how crazy and hysterical we can be!

Again, another good sermon here!

I once saw a video on www.apostoliclive.com that showed a toddler mimicking his father (or perhaps grandfather) preaching. He was running around the platform, waving his arms and screaming unintelligible gibberish into the microphone. Cute? Maybe. Disturbing, though, was the response from the congregation. It seems this little tyke's "anointing" was really hitting home with the congregation because they were going NUTS with shouts of "Amen!" and "Hallelujah!" and "Glory to gawd!" - even though you couldn't understand anything that was being uttered into the microphone. Seems that some people with just respond to anything that is said loudly in the congregation - whether it's actual words or not. Was that really worship? I don't believe God got any glory from that. But maybe the boy's dad /granddad did.

Have we really become so shallow that if we're not shouting and dancing we "haven't had church?" Are we so afraid that our friends in the church across town will think we are dead if we aren't running around like fools, tripping over babies and stepping on feet, running into walls/pews/people? All of that nonsense reeks of idolatry, and I want no part of it.

I have been in many services where the atmosphere got very excited and emotional. Often it HAS BEEN in order and it's a wonderful experience. But more often than not, I find that the God is not in the thunder, He is not in the earthquake, He is not in the fire. But He is in the still small voice - the quiet, intimate times when true refreshing and strength comes from the presence of the Lord.

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Here's the link:
http://www.apostoliclive.com/play.php?vid=492

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pastorrick1959 regarding your post ///////////////goodpost cliff. i am pastor now but evangelised for yrs. so i still carryy that flame buring on the inside for those wild out of control services..lovem always will ,there is a time for that at worship time but at preaching we need not just excitement but a true word and directional word with wisdom andf knowledge to guide and lead us in the right way ,, guys it takes it all ...take out wild worship as long as descent and innorder we be no different than the baptist and just as dead after a while!i preached in many a apostolic church the had dried up the 1st night of revival was a shock to them lol my screaming and going on but after the gifts was mveing by the spiriit of god and people getting healed i have heard the preacher say i aint seen them move like this in yrs. while wild worship is just iceing on the cake , it still goes with the meal , we dont have to shout the walls out every service but if we rule it out as simply i to mature now to do that we become dead and boreing!

I do not attend a baptist church but just because they sit in there not up bouncing off the walls and jumping around does not mean they are dead and dried we have members in our church that say the same thing and it just makes me so angry. Gods sprirt is in a baptist church just like it is in a pentecostal church.

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A quick response to those defending what some call radical worship. Please, give me Bible. The conviluted idea that we are headed towards the watered-down doctrine of other Faiths/Denominations is simply not enough. In fact, this is a vain excuse to continue with practices only because we don't want to become like others; not because of Biblical reason. This is dangeroues and cultish.

Nowhere in Scripture can it be confirmed someone being "drunk/slain in the Spirit", or someone speaking in tongues by a preacher or saint, shaking someone's head, or body, screaming in their ear to "Let Go, You've almost got it, That's it, That's it, ect".

Also, these faith healing services can leave people riddled with questions. Shoving a microphone into someone's face after they've been prayed for, asking them if they've been healed can be a moment of embarrasing peer pressure. I have watched people "claim" their healing to hundreds, only to find later the ailment is still with them. This can leave people confused and wailing under false condemnation, thinking sin has caused the relapse or the destruction of the healing they never really had. This has created superstition in the Church world, leading to an illusion about God. This opens the door for people to tell these folks, "God told me, "*#%^&*&^%^%$$, This is why you lost your healing or didn't get your answer." We've got way to many folk saying, "God told them", when God didn't tell them anything.

Not validating Scripture and allowing emtional instability to sway us has also infected correct conduct in healings. Healings are totally God's result, matched with those who have simple faith. You can't earn or buy your healing, falling prey to the "hocus pocus" of dramatized Church. Healings are an experience where you have it or you don't. Follow the Master on his earthly journey. There was no guessing when the work was done. Lazarus coming out of the grave left no questions as to whether he was dead or alive. People didn't work themselves up into a frenzy to receive God's promise; they prayed, pushed, and waited for God's answer that would come in His timing and His way.

And, one must accept that we might live with certain ailments for the rest of our lives, this having nothing to do with our spiritual merit.

Acts gives us solid reference to the Holy Ghost experience and what happened to those who were filled. If we veer from this, we are no different from the rest who are bound by the traditions of men. We have polluted the truth like other false religions, leaving the Word behind for a wild idea. On the day of Pentecost the Bible states, "For these are not drunken as ye suppose". We have used these verses to support the behavior of stumbling in the flesh and slurring in tongues, or laughing uncontrollably. This is ludacris. Those in the upper room were not acting in this manner. They were speaking in foreign tongues, which some conceived was the result of drinking wine.

Perfect religion is that you visit the fatherless and the widow in thier affliction. Pleasing God means we love our enemies, praying for those who persecute us. Following the Lord in fullness is self-sacrificing, giving, not taking. Our love for God is not measured by the Sunday night Hoe-down, hurdling pews like being in the Olympics. It's about taking up the cross and following Him, no matter where He leads us, laying down our lives if nessesary. We must learn to sing at midnight. We must find Him, alone in the wilderness.

I apollogize if I seem so passionate about this. I guess it may be the result of my past. I was delivered from false religion 30 years ago and know first hand how we can be persuaded by the path of least resistance. The Apostolic movement is changing and we must be vigilant. I believe we must find Him afresh or we will stumble into the pit we dug ourselves.

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I feel 100% of what you said here! Amen!!!
:friend

Believe this or don't... I was once in a "healing" service when an evangelist said during his sermon that the reason that one couple's child was healed of leukemia was because of how much his parents gave in the offerings. The thought that instantly popped into my mind was exactly how much did that healing cost? What is the minimum price of a healing? Does a cancer healing cost more than a heart condition healing? What about a headache? And how much would it cost to have a lost limb regenerated? I've not seen the price list, but it seems that we're preaching that God has one.

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I see this thread was started a while back but I am just now reading it since I am new to this :) - NFS - you are SO RIGHT!!! My husband is not of the Pentecostal/Apostolic faith and one of the main things that has turned him off from it is the many services he has been in and when people start running the aisles and screaming and shouting ultimately the pastor will get in the pulpit and bring attention to it and say something like - "look they are letting the holy ghost take over" - maybe not exactly like that but you know what I mean. My husband studies his bible every day is very knowledgeable in the scripture and like you said he says there is no where in the bible that supports that - so in that regards he believes it is false doctrine - it is kind of discouraging to me of course. I am glad there are pastors out there that believe like you - wish you were in my town :)

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Many good thoughts but thanks especially to NFS for your statements for they are right on target. To see so much that has become a "way of life" for much of Pentecost and yet has little or no scriptural validation is disturbing. The people are being destroyed through a lack of knowledge.
Raven

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SOOOOO TRUE!!!! I am so thankful that I go to a church where a pastor takes time to just TEACH - I get absolutely nothing but a headache when I go to a church and all the pastor does is scream his sermon - most of the time I can't even understand what they are saying and probably no one else can either but they sure are giving an AMEN!!!! The sad thing is if you do not participate people look at you as you do not have the Holy Ghost - I have even been grabbed by someone before and pulled around the church as they ran. I was visiting a church once that EVERY SERVICE they have this type of worship. I know the pastor because he was from my home church. He was welcoming visitors and welcomed me and told the girl I was sitting by to get my hand and take a lap around the church - I was HUMILIATED!!!! It was a fairly large church - fan shaped that probably seated 6 or 7 hundred. I told the girl I WAS NOT running around the whole church and we just walked around one little section as everyone sat and stared - needless to say I NEVER went back to that church again.

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When the crowd danced and shouted we find Jesus shortly afterward weeping over them....They knew not....

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I believe it is fine to worship that way, but when it is service after service after service, it begins to seem like it is just a ritual and not something from the heart. It really wears me out when people criticize people that do not worship very emotionally to how they act at a ball game - that is just so not true for everyone. I got to MANY sporting events - that is one of our favorite things to do as a family. I NEVER get up and dance around and scream and holler - I just don't act that way. I have just seen too many preachers act like someone is doomed to hell because they don't just and scream and run th aisles - "just ain't no bible for that " :)

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I love to dance before the Lord, but not scream and yell. I like it when my Pastor preaches and gets a little loud. I like when people walk, run, or dance in the aisles. But I also like the quiet moves of the Spirit of God, and just listening to my Pastor teach. I will not say what is or is not of God in someone's heart or church.

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I am not meaning to say it is not of God if you worship that way - just for someone to say you are not of God of you are NOT worshipping that way is what gets under my skin.

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Thankfully, I have not seen that. I know some that are very quiet, but they are so anointed of God.

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Great opening post NFS.

We, on some level, are still pleasing the flesh even in church.

It hasn't been a good service unless the thrills and the chills are felt.

It is a good service when the word has been opened and taught from.

Many modern Christians are bored with teaching. Give us some fancy preacher who has a lot of fancy catch phrases and can move the crowd on an ebb & tide of emotion. Pump us up with some really hip music that we can juke and jive to.

You have really hit on a true statement about some of the leanings that we possess in our modern society.

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Thanks for your kind words. Let your husband know, his hunger for Truth is good and will lead him to a solid relationship with the Lord. We need to seek Him, as wise men do. God doesn't live in the shout, but in the heart.

NFS

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I don't think you can tell people how they are suppose to worship or praise God. It is not for you to judge someone's heart, only God can do that. Of course God lives in the shout, He did when the walls of Jericho fell!!!!

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My feelings exactly. We claim to be a people of the Word, yet we do things so contrary to it. God expects us to search diligently for Him, and to reject the traditions of men.

We must not quench the desire to question, for to question brings accountability to those in authority. Once we are told to do something, just because, it may be time to move on.

God Bless, NFS

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Wow! Lord, help us to know you! So many don't know Him, but shout.

NFS

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You've stepped on a few toes. Thank God for that. The "emotional fix" has become the drug of choice to many pentecostals. A church service can seem like a three ring circus.

No one ever did this while Jesus was teaching; no one. The still small voice is being blown out by our mega sound systems, and people who can't hear anymore. Something's wrong with this picture.

NFS