No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Those of you that are uncomfortable in speaking of the pre-existing Sonship of Christ, how do you read Hebrews 1 - especially verse 2?

2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

He pre-existed but NOT as Son. The Son was only in existance in the Mind and PLan of God before Bethlehem.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Does it not state through the Son, God created the universe?

It's the language of scripture is it not?

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

The President was a community organizer in Chicago however he was NOT acting as President when he was doing that.

Thus it is with the language here the Son created all thing BECAUSE Jesus the Creator has become the Son however He was NOT the Son when He was creating.
The language is simple.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Jesus doesn't act as the Son he IS the Son.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Very well then...

Why is it that it seems many OPs appear uncomfortable saying the God created all things through His Son?

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Because if the Son existed as a separate being from the Father before the incarnation that makes Oneness doctrine null and void.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

No fuss here.

However the latin was 'form' in Phil 2 is en morphe which is a mask like an actor wears.:thumbsup

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I am, of course, not asking anyone to insert terms like persons or separate beings...

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

My Arian friend has showed up. Greetings.:thumbsup

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

A persona, in the word's everyday usage, is a social role or a character played by an actor. This is an Italian word that derives from the Latin for "mask" or "character", derived from the Etruscan word "phersu", with the same meaning. The word is also thought to be derived from Greek, "per" meaning "through" and "sona" meaning "sound", meaning something in the vein of "that through which the actor speaks", i.e. a mask (early Greek actors wore masks). - Wikpedia

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Form refers to servant, likeness in the same verse refers to man...

likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity.
Thayers

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Persona and persons can pretty much mean the same thing.

Here are a few lessor used definitions of "Person" from Dictionary.com

-- a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.

-- any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.



I find the latter one very interesting!

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Hey Steve!

Now an Arian is one who does not believe Yeshua is the Eternal Father. Am I right or wrong? So if I believe and teach that he is am I an Arian?

If Arians believe like me that Yeshua is the Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Eternal Father and the Prince of Peace then they are correct.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

First of all start with verse 1. In times past he spoke to us through prophets but in these last days in or through a Son.

This points to the incarnation.

Next then it says God created by the Son. God created. If we look at John's gospel he starts with the Logos and only after the logos is made flesh does he call him "Son".

If God's agency isn't someone other than God, then God's agency is His own Word.

Bernard though sees this as God creating with the Son in view or in mind, the very foundation or corner stone of creation.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Arians believe God made Jesus and Jesus made everything else.:thumbsup

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Good thought Prax.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I understand that, but any way you look at it, vs 2 still says God created by and through the Son.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

1 In the beginning was the Word. and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him: and without him was not anything made
that was made.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world
knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the
sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
13 Which were born, not of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his
glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:1-3, 10-14 KJV

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

God IS a Spirit. God was IN Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.
A lamb or sinless sacrifice was prepared from the foundation of the world.
God could not die so he overshadowed the virgin Mary and she conceived
and gave birth to a Son, that COULD die, when the Spirit withdraw at the
Cross. God looked for a man in the OT but said He couldn't find one. So he
took His own seed and begot His Son. It was God's seed that Jesus came
from. God's seed and a virgin maiden.

God IS BIG and Great enough to carry out HIS Own Plan. He can do it all
by HIMSELF.

How Great Is Our GOD!

The splendor of a King,
Clothed in majesty
Let all the earth rejoice,
All the earth rejoice
He wraps himself in light,
And darkness tries to hide
And trembles at his voice,
And trembles at his voice

How great is our God,
sing with me
How great is our God,
and all will see
How great, How great
Is our God

Age to age he stands
And time is in His Hands
Beginning and the End,
Beginning and the End
The Godhead, Three in one
Father, Spirit, Son
The Lion and the Lamb,
The Lion and the Lamb


How great is our God,
sing with me
How great is our God,
and all will see
How great, How great
Is our God

Name above all names
You are Worthy of all praise
and My heart will sing how great
Is our God

How great is our God,
Sing with me
How great is our God,
and all will see
How great, How great
Is our God

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Hid DID pre-exist as the Son. As you have stated, it was in the mind/plan, which is what Logos is, of God. So the Son DID pre-exist Bethlehem, but not in the flesh...only in the plan of God.

God DID create everything through Jesus Christ. It was not that Jesus created, but that God created with a view toward/through Jesus since that was His ultimate plan.

Personally, I have not problem talking about the Son of God or that Jesus was God's son, since those ARE biblical terms. However, I am not ever remotely close to tritheism nor do I believe that there is fellowship in the Godhead. A lot of debate has been over the sonship. If folks would just start with the OT THEN go to the NT, instead of the other way around and would also stop looking at the Bible through "creedal" lenses, there would be a lot less tritheism lurking in Christianity! :D

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Fellowship... that could be tricky. Jesus used terms like "we" and the Father & Son DID talk one to another...

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Yes, but as I said, if this points to the incarnation and God had never spoken by the Son in previous times, the Son is incarnational (Oneness) as opposed to Trinitarians who believe the Son is not incarnational. So what is left? As I said, the Logos.

God spoke all things into existence (see Gen 1)

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
And He created By Himself

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

The problem is is that "pre-exist" usually means to have actual existence as a person and not ideal existence in someone's mind to most....thus the Trinity and the Eternal Son. They believe He eternally existed as a Person called Son (not Sod)

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

After the incarnation while Jesus was here on earth in a human form. Thus his communications were not as two persons in a Godhead. It was the result fo His having taken on genuine humanity

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I think it is clear that Stephen Eureka is an apostate and should be burned at the stake. Er.....I mean excommunicated......er......I mean his church should excommunicate him.

Next he will be trying to say that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God the Father!

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

What Prax has shared here is IMO that only thing that should be spoken about "How all things were made". All things were created by the Word of God.

The Word of God went forth and begat/conceived (See Falla's 'non-song' portion of her last post) a child within the womb of Mary, resulting in the Word of God becoming flesh, a Son being begotten. Trinitarian teachers and translators seem to want to say the Son made all things; because the Son is God's word become flesh they feel empowered to present text in a fashion to support this assertion/confidence.

We know it is God's own word which has the potency to create. This understanding is revealed with such plainness as we read in Genesis concerning how God spoke (God said)....and there was.

......

The first Chapter of Colossians does introduce a foggy-ness with an English translation that forms a sentence that extends from verse 9, continuing through verse 17 that contains:

1 comma --1 semi colon AND --5 COLONs! Wow.

I mention this because the flow of the witness requires the reader to understand who the pronoun HIM is pointing back to.

v.9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
v.10
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
v.11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
v.12
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
v.13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
v.14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
v.15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
v.16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
v.17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

The rarely seen use of so many colons within a single sentence (on the part of an English translators efforts) seems to reveal a struggle to understand the thread of what we would call a run-on sentence. The construction of Paul's writing are very often challenging to assign proper nouns to the use of pronouns.

I do not offer this post as a definitive grammatical anything.

But to reconcile the larger scriptural witness concerning the plain fact that God has created everything by sending forth his own word, I am prepared to consider that verse 14-15 are a parenthetical expansion provided in service to the prepositional phrase we read that ends verse 13 "of his dear Son".

Paul's elongated thread/sentence returns us to verse 16 and 17 for completion.

just some thoughts I wanted to share in this thread.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Many OP believe as Prax has pointed out, but there are also several teachers that would state the Son was pre-existent. I have heard this taught myself, though I won't try to quote here.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

LOL!

While I do not affirm multiple beings in the Godhead, it is of great interest that it can be said, the Father (being God), and the Son (also being God), communicated one to the other.

Has all the communication ceased, now that Jesus is glorified? Does the Son of God even now know the hour of His return?

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Anyone besides me find this interesting?

Dictionary.com Has one definition of Person as "Any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost"

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

homerun

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

it seems to me that whoever added this definition was of trinitarian influence.
not a great surprise seeing as how most of the Christian world seems to be of that influence.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

WHY is this so hard for people to see and understand? and I do not mean just 'unsaved' people, I am talking true believers, repented, baptized, HG filled people.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I think it could be said they had Oneness influence as well. "modes of being" is not typical Trinitarian language is it?

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I suppose you are postioning a view that asserts if:
A=B
and
B=C
then A=C.
{Note: this is referred to in mathematical circles as the Transitive Law of Equality}

If I am misunderstanding the source of your bewilderment... please accept my apologies.

If I am NOT misunderstanding your bewilderment (obviously my word not yours), then I offer this (for about the 7th time here on AFF:thumbsup)

The Word of God is NOT God.
The word of God is NOT a FULLY substitutionary equivalent of God.
God's word (like our own word) proceeds forth and comes from us (by our own will).
For A=B, B must be fully equivalent to A.
For B=C C must be fully equivalent to (able to be substituted for) B.

You can not make God's Word a substitutionary equivalent to God without making two God's; God himself and God's Word.

God did not become flesh.
God's word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Amen. Jesus is the Creator and became the Son.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Amen from me as well.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

A good song.
The only people I've heard sing that song considered themselves trinitarian.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Interesting you would say that! I am still at church ... they have been singing that song for about 20 min now! (extended altar service)

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I've only heard that song sung at one church
and the folks at that church consider themselves trinitarian.