|
I missed the rapture?
I didn't know, until a few days ago, that there are actually people who believe the rapture has already taken place. Is there anyone on this forum who understands this belief?
Forgive me if asking this is way out of line, but I am interested in knowing how and when this took place. Wouldn't this mean that almost all of Revelations has already taken place? Where do people with this belief believe we are in the Bible? Do they believe there are any unfulfilled prophecy's left in the Bible? It seems to me the saying "hindsight is 20/20" applies here. If this really did already happen, wouldn't we have the benefit of hindsight to fully explain what all the smallest details in Revelations means? Mark |
Re: I missed the rapture?
There are a few people on this forum who believe this, they have been relatively queit here lately, but might come out of the woodwork.
Technichally, they are called preterists, and more specifically, Full Preterists. They believe the Lord Jesus returned in A.D. 70, and that all prophetic scripture is fulfilled. Thius, no more rapture, and no more second coming. The world continues on in this present state, and by the way, that means that they believe that Satan was (and has been) bound since the first century. Thus all the atrocities, all the wars, the holocost, etc. are all events that happen in Jesuc Christ's millenial reign of peace. :crazy |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Really? So the year 70 was Jesus' second coming? So where is He supposed to be now? Is Jesus still on earth? Was He taken up to Heaven a second time? Did he come back with the saints? Weren't they supposed to be made Kings and Priests over the nations of the earth? Did Armageddon happen, too? What was the mark of the beast all about? When is Satan scheduled to make another appearance?
I don't understand, did the entire world miss this? I thought every eye was going to see Him. Did the Jews see his scars? So many questions... I there anyone who can explain how and when all these things happened? |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
What is your interpretation of this parable in Matt. 21, and when is its happening?: Matt. 21:40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” 41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Thats kind of the kicker. Had Jesus returned in glory in 70AD, I'm pretty sure that would be recorded all over the place in history.
I fear that this thread will cause a resurrection of the preterist fervor. Get ready for the flood. It won't be long. |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Well for starters there is no bible that supports a "secret" rapture anyway.
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
Our English word "rapture" is similar to the Latin word "rapiemur" |
Re: I missed the rapture?
OK, I guess what I am really looking for here is not why it is a possibility in scriptures, but proof of how it already happened.
Lets say I already believe that the scriptures are correct, and that they did indeed predict the second coming of Jesus in AD 70. Since that event is now history, not unfulfilled prophesy to be speculated on, what is the explanation of all those things listed in the whole book of Revelations? For example, in history, the first coming of Jesus happened, and we were able to look back at the things written beforehand in the Old Testament and explain how the actual events fulfilled the details of the written prophetic events. That is all I am asking. Since it already happened, explain the events as they actually happened in history, and how those events fulfilled the previously written prophetic events of Revelations. His first coming is well documented throughout our history books. I don't know of very many people who believe Jesus was never born and never hung on a cross. It just remains a fact in our world history that he indeed was born and crucified. So shouldn't there also be all kinds of history about this just as important, if not more, second coming? How does this other viewpoint address this very large portion of the Bible? For this discussion, forget about the parts of the Bible that prophesy about WHEN this event will happen, for just one moment. Focus on how the historical events fulfill all the other prophetic scriptures. Please forgive me for not listing exact scriptures. I am not very good at this. I know I am probably in way over my head being in the "Deep Waters" forum. I am just searching for better understanding from people who hold this specific belief to be true. Thank you to all who take the time out of your daily schedules to post your beliefs here. Mark |
Re: I missed the rapture?
There was a coming of judgement of Christ in 70.ad but there does seem to be a final appearing of Christ and eternal rewards for the believer and a judgement of the wicked.
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
The origional tribulation force is here! Obama is the anti-Christ and we have entered the forst 3 1/2 years of unspeakable tribulation! But..... If you give your own blood then you might be saved! Or.... Maybe you could go to the new temple in Jerusalem when it is built and offer up a red heifer! or not! |
Re: I missed the rapture?
AW I thought Red Heifers will bring salvation in the rebuilt temple.
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
Scott,
I'm sorry, I really don't know what that means. Is there anyone who holds this belief that can explain it well in relatively basic terms? Once you believe in this viewpoint, and agree the scriptures are correct in predicting the 70 AD event, how do you look at the historical event and say, "this, this and this scripture happened because of this, this and this event, and now we are looking forward to this event prophesied in this scripture, because it has not yet happened..." It seems logical to me that this past event should be able to shed light on some of the things that revelations talks about. (What exactly were those four horseman?) Surely this is not the question that brings down an entire belief system!?! Thank you in advance for your explanations, Mark |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
The 70AD “last day” coming of Jesus is mentioned in Jesus' Mount Olivet Discourse. These synonymous accounts focus not on a future coming, but on the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD (See Mat 24:1-34; Mark 13; Luke 21; most of the Book of Revelation). The “Last Day" is a biblical expression that deals with a time period that occurred between Christ's Advent and 70AD. The term, "last day," speaks of the "last day" of physical Israel's Old worship system and covenant. Jesus returned, just as He said He would, during the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem. This return removed the Old Covenant system and firmly established Jesus' New Covenant as the Everlasting Covenant for all mankind (Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles). The chief function of prophecy is not to predict the future, but to bear testimony of the validity of Jesus as mankind's Messiah, and to thereby call the redeemed in Christ into harmony with Jesus' New Covenant. God promises judgment for those found rebellious to His Covenant, and He promises divine intervention to those obedient to its stipulations. Throughout the Bible this is referred to as "the curse" and "the blessing" (See Deu 28; Moses' Song in Deu 31; Lev 26; Mat 7:24-27; Gal 6:8). I have found that none of the various views of prophecy offers the type biblical answers on eschatology like is found in Fulfilled Eschatology! For a brief overview of Fulfilled Eschatology, see OnTime Journal: About Us – Prophecy. If you have further questions, please let me know. Jesus' best, Bro. Burk |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Thank you Bro. Burk!
I will read through the prophecy.pdf later tonight. I just glanced at it and also noticed you state in your post that "The chief function of prophecy is not to predict the future...". I thought that was the exact reason for prophecy. I would even go so far as to say that in many cases, prophecy in the Bible even leads people to act in the future. One quick example comes to mind: Mathew 1:18-25. First, it was prophesied to Joseph that Mary would have a boy and that happened. Second, Joseph was foretold to call his name Jesus, which he then acted upon, and did name the boy Jesus. Third, this whole process was done in this way to fulfill a previous prophecy, "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet...". So my conclusion: ALL of this was indeed done to predict the future. Why? So those prophesied to would know beforehand; so they would know it was of God; so they would know what to do and how to act. Would this event have unfolded the same way and would Joseph have made the same decisions if God had not intervened by sending His angel to give foreknowledge and direction? We will never really know. But, I believe God does things for very specific reasons. The only logical conclusion that I can draw is that God did this to make sure it happened in this exact way; to fulfill a previous prophecy. I think if you look individually at all the fulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament, you will see this same theme: Tell people what will happen, so they know how to act. Why would Prophecy in the New Testament be any different? But still, even you say that prophecy is "not to predict the future, but to bear testimony...". I assume what you mean is that once the event takes place, we can look at the prophecy and see how the event fulfilled it. Which brings me back to my original point: How specifically did the event fulfill the hard to understand scriptures in Revelation? Do you believe this question is relevant? Or, do you just accept that it already happened, so there is no need to understand how the event and the prophesies matched up in 70AD? Thanks again, Mark Andrews |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Be blessed in your studies.... TKB |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Good to see you posting TK :thumbsup
Even if you are incorrect:D |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
OK, I read about the first half of the study and skimmed through the last half. I also spoke to a pastor for about an hour that held the same view. It was as if he just read the same study, almost an identical linear thought process that hinges on the strict adherence to the exact time frame of 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24.
Well, not really the exact time frame. There is an algebraic equation, one day equals one year, not mentioned in the scripture that must be applied before even beginning this study. A difficult pill to swallow when your belief hangs on the thread of a time frame needing to be exact. The scriptures also talk of a breakdown into three groups of time, seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and one week. But for some reason, they must all be connected, with no gaps, for this study to hold together. The 70 weeks, or actually 490 years once decoded, must be an exact time and in order with no gaps, but I was never able to find in scripture where those MUST be the case; two crucial unfounded points to begin this entire way of believing. I have also found it interesting how everyone with this belief starts with this very point. Its almost like there is a hidden wormhole in the Bible to another universe of Bible thinking. Once you've found it, you're sucked in never to return. No one ever starts their debate anywhere else. It all starts and ends with time. I have never had someone try to convince me 70 weeks absolutely positively must mean 490 years, but its absurd to think that one thousand years actually means one thousand years, all in the same attempt of understanding the actual words about time in the scriptures. So, I think this is as far as I need to go. There are just too many assumptions and unsubstantiated statements in the first three paragraphs alone, I don't think I could ever come to the same conclusions drawn by this study. I might be wrong. Forgive me if I am. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to teach me this other viewpoint. This will now always be a thought in the back of my mind when doing further study. I will continue to weight it as I learn new things... Mark |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
Sir, you are a prophet! :thumbsup Anyway, thread author, there is the idea I propose that, yes, Jesus came in AD70 but only in local destruction against Jerusalem for their rejection of Christ. Matt 21:41 mentions that coming. However, and this is a big "however", PARTIAL preterists believe Jesus is still coming again in a PHYSICAL resurrection of the saints from the graves. Full preterists deny this second point. To me, full preterism as well as the traditional full futurist positions have gone too far in either extremes. ALL fulfilled or NONE fulfilled. I have a FAQ section on my site for partial preterism, which we found to emphasize the KINGDOM of God now in the Spirit. http://mikeblume.com/prophecy.htm |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
Quote:
The Bible does not say Peter’s "thousand years" statement is about a timetable foretelling the years found in a dispensation of time. In context his statement is clearly speaking of the limited time span of a man's life, and reminding them that though they may think they have an eternity, because they are finite, they only have a short span of time in this life. To see this is true, first look at the context surrounding Peter’s statement about a day being a thousand years. 2 Peter 3:3-14Peter does not say “one day with the Lord ‘is’ a thousand years,” but that “one day is with the Lord ‘as’ a thousand years.” Peter is borrowing from Moses’ statement about a day being a thousand years. Here is the context of Moses’ usage of this expression: Psalms 90:1-10Neither of these “thousand years” passages is about the number of years found in each dispensation of time before the final “last days” arrive. Instead the context of these passages clearly shows God is telling mankind to think about the shortness and the frailty of their lifespan, and to thereby live accordingly. Or to say it more simply, God is saying, “Life is short! If you want to live in harmony with God in eternity, then you better start doing it while you still can in this life!” Peter referred to Moses' words in effort to tell the men of that generation that they did not have forever to prepare for the coming prophesied judgment. Peter warned that same “untoward generation” to “save itself” from that same coming judgment (see Acts 2:40). And just as foretold, Jesus did bring fiery judgment against that generation in AD70. Bro. Mark, you're doing what most people do during times like this; you are filtering what you read through what you already believe. If you were taught the world is flat, then you'd reject any teaching that says otherwise. If you were taught that there is three gods, then anything that says there is only one would be rejected by you as heretical. But if you really want to discover biblical Truth, you cannot use traditions, you must use only the Bible. That is what the Early Church did to prove all that was foretold about the Messiah was fulfilled in Jesus. The view of prophecy that I espouse is based on that same principle, for the New Testament can only be understood by first looking into what’s found in the Old Testament. When a person does that, they discover the Bible to be very simple to understand. We do not need the marginal notes found in Study Bibles to interpret biblical Truth; we just need 'the Word.' Such study is how many men and women have come into Apostolic Fulfilled Eschatology without ever reading a book or hearing a teaching on its position. It is also how I first saw it – I just read my Bible. This is the correct way to study. But it must be accompanied with an openness to leave behind any and all traditions and superstitions that are found contrary to God’s Truth. I am still willing to answer whatever you may want to know. But for that to have any benefit, you have to do more than simply “skim” what is sent. Let’s be honest, it takes more than the few hours you’ve so far devoted to this subject to determine its validity. The Web link I sent you is nothing more than a brief overview. I have much more that goes into its depth. If you are sincere about wanting to understand this subject, let me know…. God bless your pursuit of His Truth, Bro. TK Burk |
Re: I missed the rapture?
I agree TK.
And as you said...What exactly did Peter say to save yourselves from? THIS UNTOWARD GENERATION. It is a point worth consideration, WHY did Peter say to save ourselves from that particular "untoward generation". Most generally speed right over that part without consideration. |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Thank you TK, I do appreciate your patience with me.
First, Mike, this was quite funny! I like this site because of the good attitude, everyone can talk about their views and have fun at the same time! Quote:
Plus, I have yet to see anyone talk about the scriptures in light of the actual historical event. I'm starting to get the impression that once you accept the time line, there is no need to understand how the event shed new light on the scriptures. Bur rather, the new thinking changes much of the literal events written in Revelation into symbolism and allegories. This is only my view of how I think you view much of Revelation. For some reason, I am just not quite getting it... TK and Mike, I guess this whole question is really just way too big. There are so many things that we could talk about, so lets just try focusing on one small set of scriptures at a time. Hopefully this will help. And, let me clear up something I probably said wrong about the time thing. I was referring to the thousand years in Revelation 20:2-5. Lets try to just focus on these four scriptures for a while. Do we all agree that this thousand years is a real time frame, because it is stated quite differently than that of Psalms 90:4, Ecclesiastes 6:6, and 2 Peter 3:8? Do we also all agree that at the end of verse 4 where it says, "...they lived and reigned with Christ..." that this is a real life event? Where that we will be kings and priests with Christ, and be in a real physical form and sit down and eat together, just as the disciples ate together at the last supper? Lets just start with this one event. Is it real and in the time frame mentioned? Thanks guys for bearing with me, Mark |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
TK,
I believe: Quote:
Quote:
I know I still need to address some of the points you brought up, I am working on it... Mark |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
9/29/2009 The second comming of the Lord The Rapture The Resurection This subject has been the topic for discution for centerys. Even in the OT men debated whether there was a resurection of the dead or not. Jesus pretty much put the resurection question to rest when he said "I am the resurection". Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Now the resurrection as seen in these verses deals with two realms, one who has died and the living. Lazarus had died, he had been buried and in the tomb for four days. Now I have found that we cannot always take the exact wording and base a understanding on it but we must back it up with other examples found in the bible and even history if we can find it. But back to the passage, when Jesus came even when he was aways off Martha went out to meet him. Note the first thing that was dealt with was whether Lazarus would have died at all if Jesus would have come sooner. Oh the thoughts that are going thru my mind when I think about how we Christians blame God when things go wrong. God if you would have done this when I ask such and such would not have happened. Oh well I will have to come back to that at another time. Jesus reply to Martha was Lazarus shall rise agian. Her response was I know he will rise agian in the resurrection. This does let us know that there was comming a resurrection where the dead would rise to live eternaly with God. Jesus confirmes this in his teachings that the dead would rise. Special note should be taken on Jesus answer to Martha, I am the resurrection and the life. Jesus deals with the dead that believe that shall live. Jesus does not stop there though, he continues to say whosoever that liveth and believes shall never die. Here is where the argument comes into play. When does this happen? Most christians see this as a comming event yet to come. because of Pauls teachings. I Thess. 4:14-17, I Corinthians 15:51-52. Many have taken these passages to say and speak of a rapture to come as if the resurrection has not already happened. But in both of these passages the only thing I can truely see that happens is the dead in Christ shall be raised incoruptable. Remmember Jesus said whosoever beleives shall never die. So how does that work? We say we still die because this body dies. But Jesus said Lazarus was not dead he just slept. See we are wrapped up in this body but this is just our tabernacle we dwell in for a time on earth. Paul deals with this in I Corin. 15, we can argue the words soul, and spirit but the fact remains we are still an eternal being. But and I say BUT with capital letters our bodies of flesh and blood are not and never will be eternal. Even the writter of OT understood this. Ecc. 3:20, Ecc. 12:7 I remmember as a child seeing pictures of graves being opened at the rapture. and bodies of living souls flying in the air. This will not happen when we die our bodies that are buried will go into the ground and return to the dust from which God used to created us with. Therefore what will rise from death in the resurection will be that part of us that is eternal. This is the basis of most of the disagrement with one way of thinking over the other. Most Christians look for a raiseing of our dead bodies from the grave as Lazarus, this I don't beleive is what will happen. So here is the way I see it, one of two things happen. All those that were dead OT saints when Christ rose on the third day were raised and are now in heaven. When we die our soul emmediatly goes to heaven and we are given a new body. In this way the dead rose first and then we which are alive and remain are caught up when this life is over to meet them in the air to forever be with the Lord. Or as is taught by most Christians there will come a time when Christ will call us home, then the dead will rise first then we shall be caught up. I am personaly leaning towards the idea that the OT saints were raised when Christ rose. And that when we die we go straight to be with the Lord. The resurrection as has been defined by most Christians is not as scripture shows it. First Jesus said "I am the resurrection and life" As long as God is working in the world thru Christ the resurrection is not past. How else can you explain Christ words in John 11:26, he that beleiveth in me shall never die. Does this mean this body will not die? No this body will die but the eternal part of man will live on with Christ. |
Re: I missed the rapture?
I posted these back in January. I hope they help clarify this issue....
Quote:
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
Here's the remainder....
Quote:
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
Concerning those who arose with Jesus, I posted this in January also....
Quote:
|
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
I think I got this, I was looking for this passage in Matthew 27 a couple of days ago. Thanks I understand that the dead that arose, arose after his resurection and not at the time of his death. The question as to whether they arose when he arose or at 70AD does not matter to me they were the first part of the first resurection as far as I can see. And that settles it. I just find it great that as I have been studing this out this month that this post comes to confirm what God is showing me concerning the resurection. Which also confirms what I am seeing lately concering Rev. being completly fulfilled. In my mind it is so elimentery that it does not take a bible scholor to figure it out. It is just that we are so wrapped up in the traditions and teachings that we are raised with we cant see the forest for the trees. |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That being said, I really believe the view I have taken is the correct one. Quote:
Mike! |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
but I do have one question in your opinion what is heaven like? When do we get there? |
Re: I missed the rapture?
Quote:
We go to Heaven when we leave our bodies at physical death. It is not a physical place. I would say it is more a spiritual dimension. That is all I can say about it. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:41 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.