Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

The UPC was founded upon an agreement, a covenant, that the two groups who came together would not strive for their own views but work in unity. One group broke the covenant when they pushed forward the affirmation statement. They got their way, but majority it not always right. Ps 106:15

I humbly suggest that the UPC as an organization repent of this sin, issue apologies to those who left because they could not sign the AS in all good conscience, and return to the spirit of the agreement originally set out by the founders of the UPC. This is one way to stop the schisms, truly be united, and bring God's favor. Eph 4:2-16

Let's love one another with a pure heart fervently. :heart

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

I agree with returning to the Spirit of the merger ...

All of us must confess our sins and repent.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

I am guessing your not UPC...but used to be....


My advice to you is...


Get. Over. It......for goodness sake. Leave it behind....let the UPC be the UPC and live your life as you please.


Sheeeesh....if it wasnt for the UPC half the threads on this forum would have nothing to gripe about...

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

If my people who are called by my name, repent....(God)

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

The UPC does need to repent. The shift in thinking in the UPC has divided families, churches and minds.

Some of us have left, gotten over it and have moved on. It doesn't change the facts, however.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

I'm guessing you are UPC ;)

He sounds to me like hes living his life as he pleases. He can't help it that he wants to speak out about the wrongs he believes the UPC has done. And why shouldn't he? The UPC sure has no problem speaking out about the things it believes are wrong.

If what he is saying is truth then is it wrong for him to be shouting it from the rooftops? The bottom line is: there are people in the UPC who are ready to leave but just can't quite make that final step. Those people might need to hear what mizpeh is saying before they can take the final step out of the misreable position they are in.

It's really not about downing the UPC. It's knowing where we came from and how hard for ourselves it was to leave even when it was time and trying to help others who are in similar predicaments.

For us and others, the real impact of claiming that the UPC went away from it's original agreement is in showing that the old paths weren't always the old paths. It's in showing that tolerance once existed in the organization. It's in giving hope that maybe even the UPC can turn from the conservative opinion that currently is in control.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Go ahead Dan, were listening. :situps:

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Im UPC and I agree. The UPC was wrong to allow the affirmation statement and get away from the original agreement.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

From reading on the previous forums it seems that many said that, originally, the "differing" views on the salvational message sounded so alike that you couldn't distinguish the two. Now it's been said that the differences are very apparent and couldn't possibly abide together.

So, wouldn't the two have drifted apart even without an Affirmation Statement? It seems like they would have. Perhaps the AF helped it along but, today it seems it would have ended in a divide anyway, JMO.

How can God, who is so precise on plans and timing, have two plans of salvation?

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Not being UPC but having heard bits and pieces about the Affirmation Statement please clarify. Did it have to do with the plan of salvation or standards or both?

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

They would only drift apart if one group or the other made it a divisive issue. The affirmation statement was part of that divisive direction.

We lost some good men when that happened.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Ministers were required to sign the AS annually to affirm their belief in the changes made to the Fundamental Doctrine and the Articles of Faith. That has since been changed as well to bi-annually.

The changes affected the UPC's position on the plan of salvation and standards - both.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

IMHO - The most practical aspect of the changes concerned the ways in the UPC has a group viewed other groups of Christian believers.

The "old way" admitted that other Christians could be saved. The "new way" denys even the possibility that other Christians can possibly be saved unless they join the Oneness Apostolic Faith movement.

This whole pattern of change must also be upheld by a false view of Church History. In order to substantiate their claims in light of Matthew 16:18 (the "gates of hell prevailing" against the church), the revisionists have also adopted a fraudulant view of history that is maintained only with the grossest fabrications, otherwise they'd have to admit that for some reason no one was saved for about 1,700 years of the church's almost 2,000 year history.

Bible truth never needs to be upheld by outright lies and fabrications. The UPC needs to reprent of promoting these lies. The whole "Three Stepper" movement needs to repent for inventing and passing one these lies.

Then, maybe, we can see the Oneness Apostolic revival that we all desire.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

For the record, I don't think that verse in Matthew has anything to do with an unbroken chain of visible believers.

It has to do with the church verses the gates of hell. The church is victorious through Christ, over death and sin.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

You're sure learning a lot of stuff stuff from MY Logos Scholar's Bible Study package.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

On the other hand the one step group who also does claim Acts 2:38 would have to admit that for 1700 years no one did what the Apostles commanded to be done in the first sermon preached in the New Testament Church.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

which is no where near the size of the problem that three steppers are faced with if there wasn't anyone in that 1700 years doing those things.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

lol

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Protestants have to admit that until the reformation nobody was doing what they claim is the truth and on and on it goes

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

This is pretty much what Jesus told His followers in Matthew 15:14 when they were excluded and received the left foot of disfellowship from the Pharisees (the "religious and holiness" organization of their day).

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Isn't the "gates of hades" a term for death or the grave and that promise means that even death of a member will not mean the whole church has died?

Some also teach that the the city gate was where the elders met and "gates of hades" means the government or council or schemes of hades will not destroy God's Church.

One question about that second teaching. Israel was God's people before and even during the captivity in Babylon, weren't they? Did they cease to be God's people while in Babylon? Is it possible that the "Church" went into Babylon/Romish captivity for a while but still remained the Church and has since emerged from captivity? When Israel came out of Babylonian captivity they carried with them some "junk" they'd picked up there. Could the church today still carry some "junk" they picked up in captivity? Would carrying this "junk" cause them to cease being the church?

Some Romish/Babylonian "junk" in the church today could be:
1. The teaching (like in the notes of the Douay Bible at John 3:5) that "born of water" means water baptism properly administered

2. Clergy as a ruling class to be obeyed unquestionably by the laity

3. Clergy holds salvation of the laity in their hands, you must stay in "the church" in order to receive eternal life through the sacraments

4. Large pyramid organization structure with one man (pope or GS) at the top and orders come down from headquarters to all

5. "Holy Tradition" like the manual has equal weight with written Word

6. Written Word only trustworthy as interpreted by clergy

7. Performance based religion or following of rules to get saved and to maintain salvation

8. Etc.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

I guess I just don't see how two differing opinions on salvation can preach together? At some point, when it gets down to the Nitty Gritty, it's going to be divisive.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

There were times Israel was backslidden except for a small handful and even then it would not have been know unless God revealed it

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

The gates of Hades is the gates of death. It will not prevail over the Church because Christ will resurrect them from the dead.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

The opinions were not that different. First of all they both preached Acts 2:38 and from what I have heard they preached it so "hard" that it was hard to distinguish them.

Preach together? Why can't they preach together? Why can't I preach on baptism with out mentioning "and if you are not baptized this way you are going to hell"?

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

I have friends that I consider Christian brothers and sisters who do not agree with me on everything. Some of them have been sprinkled, some have been immersed with the traditional FS&HG formula, and some have been immersed in the name of Jesus Christ. We are all children of the same God. We just don't see eye to eye on everything. I have a Lutheran friend/brother who believes that baptism (sprinkling) is "born of water" and I have a Roman Catholic friend/brother that believes that baptism (pouring) is "born of water." I also have Apostolic brothers and sisters who believe that water baptism is "born of water." I have Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, and Apostolic brothers and sisters that believe that water baptism is a ceremony that takes place after and separate from being born again.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

This is from an article titled “The Blood Covenant” by Howard A. Goss which appeared in the June 1954 Pentecostal Herald, pages 6 and 10


... repentance brings the blood of Jesus to a sinner’s heart to wipe out and cleanse him from all sin, he should then be baptized in water as a confession of his faith in the atonement...

When a sinner fully repents and confesses before God, the blood of Jesus atones for his sins , and cleanses his heart from all sin, and when he is clean then only is he a fit subject for water baptism. After that comes the promise “…you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost…” (Acts 2:38)

The blood and power of the Lord Jesus is the only source of regeneration or the New Birth. Water baptism alone has no power to remit sins, else we could baptize infants as do the Catholics. The Roman Catholic teaches regeneration by water baptism, but it is not according to the Word of God. A candidate for baptism in water should be baptized BECAUSE THE BLOOD has cleansed, remitted, forgiven his sins, and not in order to get them remitted, as WATER ALONE CANNOT WASH AWAY SINS. The old hymn goes:
What can wash away my sins,
Nothing but the Blood of Jesus.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Sorry to interrupt the good discussion, but can someone please explain why the AS is still an issue when a large majority of those who voted for it must have left the UPC anyway in the last 10 years? I know, now DKB is there and understand he may have helped with it some way (sorry, haven't read enough of Fudge yet) but why wasn't the AS voted down under the last GS? Why was it instead brought to biannually, if that was the case?
I'm not UPC any more, and didn't know much about the manual or the AS while I was UPC. I'm just curious.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Au contraire Michel!

The apostles commanded their converts to change their lives to conform with the Christian faith and to then be baptized under the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. They would thusly become disciples of Jesus Christ and receive the promise of the Father.

People been doing that ever since Pentecost 30 A.D.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Oh yeah! Michael scores with a slam dunk! Sam too.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Actually Mizzie is the General Secretary of the Ladies Auxiliary and Chief Doily Procurement Officer for the UPC. Or something like that.

And... if it wasn't for the UPC there wouldn't be anything to talk about on any of the various "Apostlic" forums.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

My husband was raised COG, of which, his grandfather was a licensed minister. He told me that they were more strict than the AOG (just a side note), they taught you were saved at repentance and preached the Holy Ghost as the "added blessing". He repented at 13, tears and all, and knew he was not capable of living the life he was required with what he had. They told him he was saved. The "added blessing" was not taught as a necessity.

When he joined the Air Force, he bunked with two guys from the UPCI. He began to study and feels that God showed him that he was taught wrong. He was, subsequently, filled with the Holy Ghost as he saw and believed it is a very necessary part of the Gospel message and not just an "added blessing".

I was taught the same when Charles Duke, the Astronaut, baptized me. He told me that some speak in tongues and some do not. Well, I was baptized in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and did not look into the "speaking in tongues" part, because he told me that God gave it to special people and I knew, at that point of my life, I was not special. That is a very bad way of presenting the Gospel, IMO. I don't know what he teaches today, but that's what he taught years ago.

Now I understand people are teaching the Holy Ghost is not salvific, but for empowerment and teaching that speaking in tongues is not the "only" evidence that you have received the Holy Ghost. I have a problem with that. These are some of the reasons, off the top of my head. We've been so laborious on this subject, I don't think I want to get more into this.

• Jesus said that it was expedient (be better or profitable) if he went away because if He didn't, the Comforter (Holy Ghost) would not come. (John 16:7)
  
• You will receive power after the Holy Ghost comes upon you. (Acts 1:8)
  
• After you repent and are baptize you will receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
  
• It is evident that "speaking in tongues" is the sign - Acts 2:33; Acts 11:15. These two scriptures, alone, would be enough to stand on as support and evidence of that fact.
  
• God gives the Holy Ghost to those that obey him. (Acts 5:32)
  
• We are the temple of the Holy Ghost. (I Cor 6:19)
  
• Having begun in the Spirit are you made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:3)
  
• If any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, we are none (without) Christ. (Romans 8:9)

I see no reason to believe you will not speak in tongues or that you receive it any other way. Romans 8:9 tells me that it is a salvational issue. If I don't belong to Him without the Holy Ghost, how will I make it to heaven? It is the earnest of my inheritance.

Prax, that means these two varying messages will come against each other in a very divisive way and there will not be unity in that. They may have started out being almost identical, but they certainly are not anymore.

We have heated debate about that here on AFF. How is taking a stand against the AS in the UPCI any different? David is calling me a liar because I am a 3-stepper. That means my husband is also a liar. Who would have thunk! LOL! Pointing fingers at the UPCI becomes pretty moot at that point. I mean, really! LOL!

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

I don't see where you proved that these two varying messages will come against each other in a very divisive way. It's not the messages but the people. Also you didn't really address the points I made

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

I told you what I see as a divisive message. Saying you are saved at repentance (one stepper), saved after the infilling of the Holy Ghost (3-stepper). Romans 8:9 tells me I don't belong to Christ without the Holy Ghost. So, I don't see how I can be saved at repentance.

You said that both preached Acts 2:38, that it was hard to distinguish between the two messages. Distinguish means that there is something different. Where or what was the distinction?

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

That doesn't prove though that it has to be divisive. That only shows they differ on where one is saved. Both groups preached the necessity or repentance, baptism in Jesus name and the Holy Ghost

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Romans 8:9 says that I do not belong to Christ without His Spirit. Therefore, I believe it is erroneous to say that you are saved when you repent. That is two separate messages being preached. I do not see how that will not divide at some point.

Can you image two preachers - one on Sunday morning and one on Sunday night - preaching opposite messages. LOL! Sunday morning you are saved, Sunday night you are not. LOL! How is that going to work? I do not see that working, at all. LOL!

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

The only one making an issue out of when someone is saved is you. Thus you prove my point. It's not the message but the people that hold the messages that are divisive.


The discussion is not when someone is saved but whether or not 2 views, that both preach Acts 2:38, can be a single organization. I say yes except for people who want to be divisive over it

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

BTW one would not preach you are saved and the other you are not. They would both preach in their respective churches Jesus Christ, Faith and Acts 2:38

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

• 
  

Can you prove that the experience you call "speaking in tongues" is the same identical experience to that which the apostles experienced in Acts 2? Remember, you stated that this is a "fact." Prove it.

I know that this challenge will generate some hearsay testimonies, but it has never been demonstrated on even one single occasion since New Year's Eve 1899 until this present day that any of the "speaking in tongues" in the modern day Pentecostal Revival has ever included anything like the experience and the languages described in Acts 2:4-11.

Not once. Ever.
Do you mean "David" as in me? I see that I appear to be the only one with a "David" in his user name that has posted in this thread so far.

I called you a liar because you are a "Three Stepper?" You're hallucinating badly now.

When did I call you a liar?

That's the problem with your methodology, IMHO. You are so certain that you are correct that anyone who dares to question - not necessarily your doctrine, but questions your certainty - draws this "ARE YOU CALLING ME A LIAR!?!" type of response.

Grow up.

Now, prove to me that you are unquestionably right on this issue by producing verifiable evidence that the scene in Acts 2:4-11, has ever been repeated in a 20th or 21st century Pentecostal meeting. Prove to me that this is a fact, as you have said it is.

Re: Confess your sin, UPCI!
 

Hello!!!! :toofunny