just in need of some different opinions and advice
 

Hello All.
Im know it’s funny that Im coming to a Forum to get advice. Believe me I have already had counsel with a few elders of my church and also a mentor of mine. Im just coming to get some opinions from people who do not personally know me and have no bias.

I have been in the UPC for about 10 years and have had a great 10 years. I feel my church has taught me many amazing things. In the last 3 years I have questioned a lot of the standards that are required in order to be a member or in leadership of the church and some things many of my church family consider to be heaven/hell issues.

I have studied scripture for the past two years and have prayed and fasted over the questions I have had and know exactly where I stand on what we as UPC consider "Holiness Standards". I respect those who have personal convictions about hair, makeup, and pants, short, beards...and whatever else you can think of but I dont see them as heaven or hell issues. I didnt come to this out of rebellion or anger..As a MAN the standards really dont apply as much to me so there isn’t much for me to get rebellious about. : )

I started questioning things because I just couldn’t see it in scripture and I couldn’t imagine asking my future wife(now married) or daughters (if I ever have them) to do these things. My problem is that I attend a UPC church and I am in leadership so I feel it’s important to do as my church ask, However, I dont really want to represent what they require anymore. I dont want to ask visitors to come and tell them there is no need to change what they wear but then in 4 months they want to sing my pastor tells them NO because they are wearing pants(women) or has a beard (man). I also knwo we say let them get it for themselves but I also am aware (because I was there) that if a change hasnt taken place in a few months we start to wonder if they even got the HG. Im tired of people praying people to salvation just because they see cut hair. I feel like a hypocrite asking people to hold up to certain standards but then a law that was written one line down we completely ignore...It’s hard for me to thigns like:

Wearing pants to bed and to the gym but we say its a sin so dont put them on to go to nordstroms...are you serious!!! SIN IS SIN..in the house or in the public.

So the question:
My wife and I both completely agree and are on the same level but she doesn’t want to leave because it’s what she knows and has always done. She is scared her family will be angry and she is scared to leave tradition. Like I told her even if we leave she can 100% hold every "holiness standard" she always has but this will give us the opportunity to be honest with people and up front with what we believe and it correlate with our pastor. We are at a crossroads..I want to look for a different church and she doesn’t due to tradition. As a man and husband what do I do? I have stayed for a year and want to make my wife happy but it’s hard on me. If she said I 100% think these are heaven/hell issues then I might even respect us staying there a bit more but if the church preaches what we dont believe then I dont understand...

Anyone been here before that can give some unbiased advice.

Thanks.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Many of us here are either in the exact same place you are in, or have been in that place in the past.

There is no easy answer to this question. All that you can do is pray for God to give you clear direction. Pray for God to either give you peace to stay where you are, or to continue troubling your spirit until you know clearly that it's time to leave. Pray for God to give your wife peace in this area, too.

There really is no easy answer. I wish there was.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

This is the reason they need to drop their continual persistence that the OT scripture about wearing "that which pertaineth to a man" is any of the basis for this standard.

If that is the reasoning then they need to get real with it. Pajamas are just as much a sin as blue jeans on the platform. If it pertains to a man it pertains to a man day & night, inside & outside, winter or summer.

This kind of wavering and nonsensical application of scripture is what confuses people and causes them to lose faith on a number of levels.

If we are going to teach it then let us teach it from a modesty standpoint. I do believe that for a woman to wear a skirt is, generally, more modest than pants but then there are those who must certainly need axle grease to get those skirts on and they have missed the point entirely... and... they have sinned. They walk in their own professed wisdom and have made themselves fools.

We must dress modestly and present ourselves in a modest fashion.

We must teach things we can stand on and not build our houses on sinking sand or else we make ourselves and, by extension, our very God look like a fool.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Sorry to throw a wet blanket on your quest ... but this forum, or any other, is the last place you should seek advice about the above. Especially regarding the bolded part.

If you don't agree with the standards your church leadership has set for church leaders, then the answer is simply to speak with your pastor or church board and either work to change, conform to, or simply don't become a leader in the church. If you don't agree with what's required to simply be a member of the church, then you should again, either work to change membership standards by speaking with your pastor or church board or simply find another church.

The forum's opinion on standards are heavily tilted and biased against outward standards ... though there are a few who disagree with the majority.

My opinions about standards are simply that...my opinions. Personally I don't agree with outward standards as being a heaven/hell issue, but don't take my opinion for yourself, study and pray about it. Others opinions are theirs as well and shouldn't be applied to your situation.

Any unbiased, good advice given would be to talk with your pastor or church board.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Guess you misunderstood my questions. I wasnt asking about standards, I stated my beliefs on standards. My questions were concerning what I should do since my wife doesnt want to leave. Any advice from people who have been in the same boat?

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Pray about it; pray that God gives her release to go or gives you peace to stay-give Him the choice in the matter... And trust that He will provide the answer.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

I really disagree with this. People in the poster's situation can feel, and truly be, extremely isolated in their "real life". Do you honestly feel that most church leadership is going to be understanding of his questions? In a perfect world, yes, but in 'real life' it's usually not possible to truly have an unbiased discussion about these issues with your church leadership.

Battles like this very often have to be fought inside your own heart and head. You usually have to come to these decisions on your own, with much prayer, of course. And forums like these can be a great benefit as a sounding board.

It has been an INCREDIBLE benefit to me to know that I'm not the only one who faced these questions. And hearing other people's stories, hearing how they dealt with their own personal situations has been a great help, too.

That's just my perspective.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

thank you!

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

I misread the actual question, but in regards with dealing with leadership or membership standards ... it really doesn't matter anyone's opinion as to what they should/shouldn't be. Coming to a forum to ask questions about this will only cause more questions and division between the individual and church leadership. If in disagreement, the only solution is either to work with them to change or find another place.

Again, I do see that wasn't the question posed, though the question posed has no easy solution either.

If your wife is not willing to leave, for whatever reason, then you're in a tough spot. I haven't personally experienced this, but I've had close friends in this situation.

One guy I knew wanted to leave for a new church, his wife wanted to remain with family and friends. It was a church she grew up in and didn't want to leave. At first he tried pushing and pulling her to leave, which caused a lot of stress and friction. Finally, he decided that though he didn't agree, he would keep the family happy and together and stay instead of leaving.

You may find others who have been in a similar situation, and can share how they made their decision. The decision will be found with prayer and made between you and your wife.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

If he is a leader as he says, then loyalty should demand him to go to his Pastor and elders with these issues. Not a random forum KNOWN to be VERY liberal leaning and anti-standards.

n david was spot on. This is not the right way to handle 192281's issue. All that will com eof it is simple: odds are he just gets a bitter feeling over these things because people here will "amen" his every disagreement with his Pastor's requirements. That will lead him to feel angry.

192281 should go straight to his Pastor. If he cannot submit to the leader and live according to what his Pastor requires of his staff, let 192281 step down honorably.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

192281 is not struggling with standards. He has resolved that issue. He is struggling with how/when to leave. He knows he needs to, but his wife doesn't want to.

That's a tough place to be with no easy answer.

Again, this is a great place to get support when you're in that place.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Wow Im just trying to get some advice, there is No need for your remarks. If you think my question is out of line then why not just leave it be. I am in NO way bitter or angry with my church or Pastor. Just because one disagrees with someone does not mean they are bitter or angry. I hold my Pastor and most my church in high respect. Yes, we differ on many things but I still know most of them are doing what they feel is right just like I am doing what I feel is right.

AS STATED ALREADY in my FIRST post. I have already counseled with elders and this includes my pastor. I was advised as long as I uphold the standard than it is fine to stay in leadership.

Since I have more of an issue with the Hypocrisy of it all I will probably remove myself from leadership as a whole when I meet with my Pastor again. It’s not that I have certain standards I want to drop, as a man what really do we do that is noticeably separate when it comes to appearance..Clothes and such. I live today just like I did 3 years ago before I had one question concerning these issues.

AGAIN, this is not a question concerning standards. I do not feel those who live by them or those who dont are hell bound in any way and I respect those who uphold standards due to conviction and understanding that not everyone will have that same conviction.

My post was to see what some people would suggest I do and maybe see if any other CHRISTIAN men or women have been in this situation..That’s all

The situation being...My wife wants to stay where we are out of comfort but Im feeling a pull to leave.

Thanks for those who are understanding and willing to READ the post before making suggestions.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

I've never had to decide with a spouse. I still believe that prayer may be the best answer. If you go and she stays, there will be struggles. If you both go, she needs to be settled in her heart about the decision. And of course, you could both stay but you've tried that and you're uncomfortable with it.

So saying, pray, is not a flip answer. It's the only one I can think of.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

There are souls that hang in the balance and your decisions are not only very difficult ones to make but will have impact on those who are less spiritually and naturally mature than you are.

I can see both sides of this...as I'm sure you can. Being in leadership, there will be the typical "why" questions from others if you choose to step down. If you stay in leadership, you need to be prepared for the attack from the enemy accusing you of hypocrisy. If you choose to leave, more "why" and "how come" questions and additional spiritual attacks trying to cause you to don't your decision.

And your wife will also be the target of questions and attacks. Just be careful for her sake. My advice, for what it's worth, is to have a very serious talk with your wife about this. Pastors and Elders are good to ask, but the brunt of any decision you make will be borne by your wife. As Christ loves the Church, your first and foremost care must be for what will happen to your wife. If you and she agree on the decisions (100%, not just passively whatever), you will be able to stand against any attack, your marriage will survive and flourish, and your future children will be ok. If you're not together, you stand a chance on losing everything.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

thanks for the advice.
Maybe more than anythign I just needed to talk a bit about it..
I wouldnt go anywhere with out her and Im willing to stay put if thats what she completely wants. PRAY PRAY PRAY..guess thats all that can be done.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

:thumbsup

Great post. A house divided can not stand.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

I know an easy answer! :toofunny

(J/K. I know from experience, it's a tough situation to be in.)

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Sheep among wolves! LOL

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Can I ask something?

If you do choose to find and attend another church that is less rigid with "standards" (seems that's what I'm reading you're looking for?) and then your wife begins to give up all her semblances of any holiness standards that she was formerly used to.......are you absolutely sure that you are going to be okay with that?

It will happen. She will look at all the "new" styles of the new church and may resist at first, but she will give in eventually. You may like the change, but then again, you may be very disappointed in the long run.

I've seen many instances as I'm sure others have. Some were glad of the changes, others lived to regret them.

My advice is to do what most have said and be upfront with your pastor and then sincerely pray and fast about it all before you decide anything.

Praying for you and your wife.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

"Wives, submit to you husbands in eveything" :)

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

When I hear about these situations (and am not saying it is happening here, although it could very well be the case), it seems like it is more about "Wives, submit to your pastor".

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

You may reach a point where the pain and consequence of staying is greater than the pain and consequence of leaving. Only you and your wife can take this inventory and weigh things out. Nobody else's opinion really matters. This is why decisions like this should only come with much prayer and family discussion. Good luck!

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

I'm not married, but I remember very vividly the course of thoughts and feelings that led to my departure from my old church. If your path is anything like the one I went down then your church is going to become a very miserable place for you very quickly. I hope it doesn't but it really sounds like it's already begun.

My advice is to focus on the good of your church instead of the bad for as long as you can. You have other considerations like your wife so you can't just up and leave when you want. You gotta stay there for a while longer so you might as well make the best of it.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

I understand what you are saying and I honestlydont know. I mean my wife has already cut her hair and she wears a bit of makeup and I dont mind. Im not sure if she would change anything else though but if she did I would be ok with it as long as it was in moderation and she stayed modest. I dont think she would be going to hell if she didnt hold every Standard the church has placed. I would just want her always to be modest and I dont worry one second about her not being modest.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

19,

You are in a difficult position, I suggest your wife would have difficulty in leaving where you are, even to go to another church that believes exactly like the one you are in. The community of the present location is a comfort zone, and the prospects of going elsewhere is the scary unknown.

The choice, since you both are at the same place in what you believe, is to stay and be miserable, waiting until it is unbearable and the departure is more painful. Or you can make a mature decision that you are going to explore other paths that the Lord is leading you, this takes time and should be made together, with both you and your wife agreeing. These choices assumes that you can no longer fit in the current culture with all your heart, seems that you stated that this is the case.

You may miss what God is calling you to do and to be if you stay. However, take your time be sure you are in right relationship with the Lord, don't allow others responses to your decision to cause you to strike back at them. Remain friends if they will allow it, if not remain friendly, especially with family and close friends. Show by your attitude and your love that you are not rebelling, and the you are together on your decisions. They will adjust, and usually respect your decisions if you remain friendly and approachable. If you become angry and strike back at those that say hurtful things, it just proves that your are rebellious in their own minds.

After 25 years, we are in good relationship with our families that are still in the UPC and or similar churches. It was very difficult at first, when we heard that folks were saying that we were backslidden. But because my wife and I were together they soon learned that they were very wrong.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

I am praying for you all...

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

getting closer to worldliness is never getting closer to god . the trend will continue from what i have seen in the past ,till nothing is wrong as long as we say we love the lord .

i understand you dont agree with every standard they hold ,,,,but have got to have some ,,our flesh wants to get out of control ,,i gave up things yra ago i dont consider wrong ,, but i felt my denial to myself would bring me closer to god ....it has and i aint sorry .
many in this day are wanting to live like hell and go to heaven ,,wont work that way .not saying that is you ,,,, but there are those out there that are ./...

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

So.... The converse of "getting closer to the world" via way of loosening traditional standards would be "getting closer to the Lord" by finding the most conservative, strict church you can! In fact, if you are not already going to said church, you SHOULD leave you current one and GO there lest you flirt with worldliness!

Gimme a break! That is NOT making things right!

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

The leadership part of this situation is serious on a number of levels. If you feel called by the Lord to do anything in the way of leadership, then there can be serious emotional and spiritual ramifications to a decision like this. If you stay, I can see the part of the hypocrisy, and while you will be able to use your talents, you will also feel uncomfortable and maybe even feel like a liar on some levels. At the same time, finding something "new" is equally as challenging, and the truth is there will at some point be a real pull to just abandon the "call" altogether.

Of course your marriage is the most important thing, and really is your first "ministry". No body can give you the answer, and I'm sure you know that. What is important is preserving your integrity and continuing to build your family. You will recieve alot of advice here, but the best thing I can offer is my prayers....I have been where you are..only in reverse - it is me that has wanted to stay out of fear, rejection, ect. - whereas my my wife would not have the issues with leaving that I would.

Above all else...we must be saved.

Praying for you!

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Good post! :thumbsup

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Ok

Having read almost all the post from page one I did not see any who truely has gone through what you are going through. But I will say take all the positive adivice given it all was good, throw the rest away it was garabage. I mean that too, if the advice has some negative forget it. I say this because I did go thru just what you are going through. Only I was the one raised in UPCI. I carried license and was pastoring etc. So not only did I have leadership in the church but also in the organization. Now for the bad news it took me 15 years from the time I first saw the hypocricy of the standards, before I left UPCI.

So take this time to increse your relationship with God, always check your own spirit.

I have much more to say just realized I have to get ready for work will try and get back on tonight.

God Bless and keep the faith.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE PRAYERS, they are much appreciated.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

As I was saying it took 15 years for me to leave UPC. Part of the reason was my wife was still steeped in the standards. It took her most of that time to come to see that they were not bible. God was good to me I was able to still be apart of the ministry or minister where ever we were over the years.

So what I am saying is to continue to seek God and pray your wife will come around in time. Until then continue to lead or minister as much as you are allowed, but make sure you do not try and tear down another mans ministry for God will not honour that. God will bless you for submitting where you are. The most important thing is to build the kindgdom. I would sujest starting a home church if you don't want to take people you are working with to the assembly your attending. As you grow in teaching in your home your leadership will bring your wife around sooner.

God Bless hope we have been a help

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

There are several men here who's wives have never broke from the Svengali control of their pastors, and even though they (the men) wish to leave, remain in the UPC because of their better halfs.

I will repeat again that scripture does NOT say "Wives, submit to your pastor!", rather it says husband, and even then it is not a Master/Servant relationship. I have no idea what advice to give since I have a very independent wife who I do not need to show false doctrine too. Rather she usually points it out even before I see it.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Getting away from the subject at hand are we? He has already studied the word and knows those things are not in the word. His wife agrees too.

For those that want to be self sacrificing that is ok. But don't condem others that realize it is better not to add to the word one jot or titil. We are adomnished several times in scripture that we are not to add to or take away from the words. Yet standards are an addition to Gods word. They are our own self definition of what we think holiness is. Just as the Pharisee had made following the law a tradition. This is Idolitry.

Eve made this mistake when she spoke with Satan (the serpent) and it got her in trouble just as it does today. Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
God did not say you shall not touch it. What did Eve think this would help keep her from sinning? When we changed Gods word just the slitest bit we leave ourselves open to the onslought of Satan. Paul says study.... that we need not be ashamed... Too many don't just leave your church when they find false doctrine they lose faith in God altogether. This atitude of self sacrifice for God does not further the kingdom it hurts it in the long run.
I gladly will respond to any coments on this subject but please do so through a different thread or my private messege
Godsdrummer

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Randy
you are very right wives are to submit to their husbands, but I don't beleive they remain in UPC primarily because of the control of the pastors. It is hard to leave something that has been drilled into you. It is a sort of brain washing. Sometimes the best one can hope for is the set the stage for the next generation.

I have four daughters and one son. When I first saw the flaws in standards 20 years ago I began to speak of this in my home. for the next 15 years my daughters still wore dresses did not cut their hair and all the rest. My eldest even went CLC in Stockton for a year and half. My children drew away first and they helped my wife make the change. Today none of my family are in any UPC church yet my children are stronger in God than they ever were in a legalistic church. That goes for my childrens spouses too. And it gets better all my grandchildren are sensitive to God at a tender age.

If 192281 will be patient God will in the right time give his wife strength to leave friends, and family to lead instead of follow.

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Twice you say your wife is scared. She may be bound by this fear and is in need of deliverance from it. Pray for your wife to be delivered from fear.

One thing I experienced from being in a UPC church was how great a stronghold fear has on the members (especially on the women).

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

Not only on the women, but the men also! Growing up, fear was my biggest motivator in church. I didn't want to be lost!

Re: just in need of some different opinions and ad
 

And now you are lost LOL just joking Steinway I know that feeling. I could tell the hundreds dare I say thousands of times, the fear was instealed everytime I went to church. "Don't sin the rapture could happen and if your not ready you will split the pit."