Interesting...
 

The other day, I received a magazine from another apostolic organization with which I have no association other than having names and mailing addresses in same UPCI directory prior to "their" departure from said org.

Now, I know what the big word is that is used when a pastor tries to steal saints from another pastors church, I just can't spell it. But I do believe that same word could be used with organizations trying to steal another orgs members same as it is used with churches.

Then of course theres the issue of snagging names and addresses out of a publication intended for only ONE org and not intended to be shared with another.

Just doesn't seem ethical to me. Besides, I'm not even sure they license women. Why would I want to receive their publications?

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Proselytizing

It is NOT ethical.

However, if they have bought the mailing list not much can be done.

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Is it wrong for Ford to send you a magazine about Fords if they desired even if you currently own a Chevrolet. Really what is the harm? Some will say nope Chevy has treated me good in the past I'm going to stick with them. Others will say, hey I like how these Fords look I'm going to give them a try. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not about building an organization on this earth. It is about saving souls and upholding principles. Who cares what organization a person belongs to.

In fact it could be argued just as strongly that since the gospel is not about an organization why would an organization about Christ not want to give its members every oppurtunity to find the perfect place to serve God. In other words theres just as strong of a case that the UPCI acted unethically by not freely offering the name and addresses of all their members to another organization that wanted them.

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Except, dont you have to state that you will use it for upci business only ?

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I don't know the answer to that.

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The last time that I was involved with getting one, I think you had to fill out a form stating what the purpose was for the mailing and what ministry was mailing it. Something like that. I think.

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The ministerial directory is not a confidential document. Nobody signed a confidentiallity agreement when they received their directory. The membership role is public information. Now they can do what they want to prevent nonmembers from getting them but really what's the big deal. Don't like mag stick it in the fireplace or use it as a telescope when playing with small children but to make claim of unethical seems a little over the top.

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There are some good articles in the publication. However, we have no plans whatsoever of joining up with them.

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The real problem here is that the WPF (or whatever unnamed org this is) has consistently said that they are not and would not "go after" UPC ministers and solicit their membership.

It's not like Lady Rev is getting Betty Crocker coupons in the mail when she prefers to bake with Duncan's cake mixes. As a UPC minister she and thousands of others are being solicited to join another org in contravention to the rules of the UPCI Manual.

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The UPCI Manual forbids ministerial membership in another organization - just as almost every other major religious body. Signing the WPF's Application for Ministerial Membership would be a clear violation of the UPCI Manual.

While there can be benign reasons for sending out mass mailings, the very active proselytizing done by the WPF in the past, along with the deceptive communications they sent out at their founding, would tend to lead a reasonable person to conclude that their magazines are intended to serve a similar purpose.

And the UPCI Directory does come with instructions that it is not to be used to solicit for non-UPC related activities and events; or at least it used to. No signature is required, by receiving the Directory you acknowledge agreement to its terms of use. It works like the license agreement in any software that you receive, even free shareware.

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My Pastor is UPCi, and from what I gather has no interest in WPF. Yet, he receives the monthly WPF magazine also (to the best of my knowledge: without asking for them).

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If they said they wouldn't come after UPC ministers then they lied. Other than that though, telling others about a program or organization or anything else you think they might be interested in is quite normal and should be allowed and even encouraged. So what if the UPC loses a few members if those members found an organization they enjoy/like more elsewhere. It shouldn't be about whose a part of which organization and that's my point. So to accuse them of doing something unethical by merely soliciting the memebers of the UPC about their new organization brings into question the ethical grounds that the UPC has in not wanting their members to be solicited by similar organizations.

Like I said though, if they said they would not target the UPC members, then the new organization lied and that is very clear and to the point and should be the focus when anyone wants to discredit them.

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I agree frogger - and in the big scope of the universe and all... this is pretty small potatoes; but as you pointed out - most of these men will go ballistic if they even think someone is proselytizing one of their tithing saints, so the hypocrisy level is high.

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I don't think a religous organization that share your same basic doctrinal views sending you a magazine or literature is prosletyzing unless it is literature denigrating your religous org. or specifically trying to recruit you.

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I receive a magazine from the OP organization with which I am licensed/ordained and also magazines from other OP organizations such as the UPC, CoJC, PAJC, and UACoJC plus others who are not considered OP. I receive these by my choice and just like to see what God is doing.

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While I am no fan of the practice of proseletyzing or stealing saints, I feel I must ask...is it even possible to steal saints in the first place?

A Pastor or church does NOT own any saints. People are free to go where they want. I believe strongly that a saint SHOULD stay and grow where they are planted, but anothe rpastor cannot steal saints. To steal a saint implies ownership and we are only owned by our God.

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I think one of the issues is that they purchased the mailing list from WEC and used it against the terms of making that purchase.

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Which is why, once again, I am so glad to be independent. I don't have to worry about all the political positioning and silly stuff that takes energy, focus etc off the main thing, which is people finding Jesus Christ!

However, I do reserve the right to observe and kibitz from the sidelines!! LOL

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Which brings me back to my point... The UPC acted unethically in not freely giving out such a list to other similar organizations that would have requested it. The reason this is unethical for a Christian organization is because they should seek to give their members every oppurtunity to find the perfect place for them and their churches to serve God. So why is everyone focusing on the other organization's ethics in obtaining the list and acting like the UPC did nothing unethical in this situation?

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You are assumming the UPC KNEW what the list was going to be used for. That might not have been the case.

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Mosy people that I know, including myself, have a huge issue in their information being shared with other entities. Anytime I sign up for a online magazine, store catalog, ect, I ALWAYS opt out of having my information shared! If I want communication from your company or arganization, I will let you know.

UPC is unethical for preserving the privacy of its ministers??? :nah

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All of your posts have expressed my sentiments exactly. If it weren't for the nonsense, I wouldn't have thought twice about receiving the magazine.

I know many of the men in that org and know them to be fine men of God. Perhaps they didn't mean for it to be viewed as proselytizing or unethical or misuse of a list of names. However, I do believe some of them would go "ballistic" if this scenario were reversed organization wise.