The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end?
 

StuffApostolicsLike posted a new humorous topic on the altar call which took a tangent point into scare tactics being used at the altar appeal. One poster said this:

****If emotionalism works to get some people to lower their defenses and have honest conversations with God in the altar/pew/car/wherever, then I suppose it isn't in my place or anyone else's to criticize it too heavily---that is, until it becomes institutionalized as the only means by which one can have an experience and, further, that that experience, and not the overall orientation toward God, is sought after as an ends. Then there is a problem.*****

This sums up perfectly how I feel.

Whatever works. Compel them. Scare them. Love them. Woo them. Shame them. Guilt them. Whatever it takes. Hell is real. Jesus is God. He is worthy of our utter and complete surrender. Period. Jesus knows how to twist our arms and speak our language. Its His specialty to (seemingly) hurt and skeer us into obedience. :) Ask Jonah, David, Peter and Paul.


Interesting discussion thus far.
http://stuffapostolicslike.blogspot.....html#comments

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some?

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

according to Joseph Fletcher it depends on if LOVE is the motive!

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

Similar to Epley's cannot be saved if baptized in Jesus' Name by a Trinitarian.


If your motive for preaching and praying them through to the Holy Ghost was not pure they are still lost....

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

LOL! you might consider checking into exactly who ole Joe Fletcher was...

your bias is glowing again....

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

No bias, just forgot my smiley.

:toofunny

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

First, I've heard so may hijack Paul's words here to be a blank check for anything they'd like... his words must have confines, and those confines must be that it always points to the cross, is in love, is honest and meets the criteria of 1 cor 13 (IMO). I'm sure there are others. Point being, ethics mean something, and we define this according to the Gospel.

Next, "becoming all things" is about the individual -- not about abusing the flock so that they will love Jesus more.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I personally don't think it is right to Compel them. Scare them. Love them. Woo them. Shame them. Guilt them, etc.

I visited a church Sunday night that I absolutely loved the way this pastor did altar. It was a great service with a lot of worshiping and at the end the pastor asked if there was anyone in the service that had not received the Holy Ghost since they believed. Two people came up and the pastor simply talked about how simple it was to receive God's gift. It was seconds before the two were speaking in tongues. So simple - so easy - no scare tactics or begging. :thumbsup

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

How does he give an altar appeal for individuals who just want to make commitment to Jesus? (They heard the Word and believed)

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

He isn't Baptist. I have never heard him call people down front to commitment to Jesus. I'm not sure that I am following your question.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

You said "since you believed" so I assumed you felt that this whole issue of "believing" was quite a moment as well. Altar appeals are only for Spirit Baptism at this church?

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

The pastor was quoting Acts 19:2.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I Think max's question is how do they get to the believing part.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I understand that. What about Romans 10? The rest of the Bible?

Are altar appeals only for Spirit Baptism and glossolalia?

Is it a pretty significant event when someone believes? Can they believe on their own? Is it possible? Does the Holy Spirit have a part in that?

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

Oh, it's a PAW church and we have only visited twice. I really don't know but I don't know how any one could want the Holy Spirit without believing in God in the first place. jmho

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

So when does that believing happen?

How does it happen?

Is there an opportunity in service for someone to publicly acknowledge their faith?

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I see what you are saying. We also attend a Baptist church sometime. It's the church that makes the Christian movies. "Facing the Giants" "FireProof" and a new one coming out "Courageous" and they do altar call by asking people to come down front to repent and give their life to God. Of course, they don't believe in the Holy Ghost but they believe people need to come down front to make a commitment to Christ. I wish they believed in Speaking in Tongues but I respect the commitment that people make by going down front.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

Of course, we are at a loss trying to find further examples in scripture for altar appeals. There were none in the Bible. In fact, most agree they originated in the 1830's with Charles Finney. He had something called a mourner's bench.

Another source says the early eighteenth-century Calvinist preacher, Eleazar Wheelock, called upon the distressed to gather in the seats “just below the pulpit” that he might “more conveniently converse with them, counsel, direct, exhort them,” etc.

Billy Sunday, D.L. Moody, and Billy Graham are other evangelists who contributed to the widespread acceptance and use of the altar call.

I see value in altar appeals, don't get me wrong.... also see dangers in them, and of course abuses with them.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

We have only visited twice, so I couldn't say what they do on a regular basis. I was just making a point that I liked how the pastor made speaking in tongues easy instead of all the screaming in someone's face kinda thing.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

They don't believe in Spirit baptism? Really?

Finding fewer and fewer churches that deny Spirit Baptism, so I'm a little surprised. But if they are a predominant Baptist congregation, that would make sense. They are likely cessationists.

I'm not sure believing happens at a "come forward" pitch anyway, or that it is THE place that it should happen. I think baptism is the more appropriate venue for one to publicly make their decision for Christ public.

Inviting people to pray and talking with them is a wonderful thing though.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I agree, sounds like a positive experience for you.

So, did he coach them at all? Did people around them pray in tongues? Did he pray in tongues?

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I'm not a fan of the Sinner's Prayer myself. Seems rather dangerous to give assurance to those who don't believe, or it places salvation on the prayer they repeat than Jesus. In reality, if it’s in His will to do so, God quickens an individual (regeneration) and gives them the ability to repent and believe (saving faith) totally independent of that person’s ability to “get the words right” (or for that matter, to say any words out loud or privately at all).

It seems wrong to put direct pressure on the will. The will should always be approached primarily through the mind, the intellect, and then through the affections. The action of the will should be determined by those influences. In the end it may produce a condition in which what has determined the response of the man who ‘comes forward’ is not so much the truth itself as, perhaps, the personality of the evangelist, or some vague general fear, or some other kind of influence....

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

He told them it was going to sound weird and gibberish but not to worry about what they sounded like. No, the people around them were not praying in tongues. The pastor was speaking in tongues some from the pulpit.

I was impressed because all I have seen is a bunch of people surround someone screaming in both ears; some speaking in tongues, etc.

I was raised UPC in a pastor's home.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

The church I mentioned is the only Baptist church I have ever visited so I don't have much experience with Baptist but I had always heard that all you have to do is repeat the sinners prayer and shake a pastor's hand. No such thing has ever taken place in this church. There is no repeating after me kinda stuff. I like that this church focuses on repentance. When altar is called, it's about getting your life right with God, repenting of your sins, and making changes in your life. I like this because I think sometimes we focus so much on speaking in tongues that other things go lacking.

I don't know. I just like a lot things God has shown me in the last five years. I have tried to get out of my little box thinking.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

It's a big church and there are a lot of tongue talkers in the church but as far as speaking in tongues, the pastor has said why does he need something, Jesus didn't need.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

One thing to consider is that alter calls using scare tactics may be similiar to building a house upon the sand ;)

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

The quote didn't say whatever works....it said what it did about emotionalism.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

Altar calls are nothing more than religious traditions of men. As is true so many times, folks don't look to the Teacher for examples of 'altar calls'.....

Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

No, can't be that simple can it? I've found that tradions of men usually outweigh the teachings of the Teacher.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

From my studies, the origins of altar calls are about 150 years old. Around the turn of the 20th century evangelist used the altar calls to count how many "salvations" occured.

It appears in the Book of Acts, the method was preach and preach and preach until something asked or something supernatural happened. Acts 2, men asked Peter and the others what they needed to do, Peter stopped preaching after an outpouring of the Spirit at Cornelius's house. Paul preached on Mars Hill until someone said, I want to know more.

Just a thought. I'm not sold on the altar call method completely.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

It's ok sister, this is a common misconception of those who are raised Pentecostal. :)

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

When in Rome...

The Lutherans receive forgiveness of sin through confession, calling on the Lord, and communion...

The Baptists confess sin, believe on the Lord...

Pentecostals shockamoo, shout the name of Jesus and speak in tongues...

Do as the Romans do. It always helps to know a bit about the faith traditions you are associating with. ;)

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

LOL - you are right! I should have use the words "speaking in tongues" instead of "Holy Ghost."

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

So it sounds like many believe in using emotional devices, scare tactics and fear to draw people to Christ, not trusting in the Gospel alone, the work of the Spirit in this area. That bothers me. When we do that, we are saying we are the Messiah. We put that responsibility in our hands, not trusting the Story and the Spirit. It is quite difficult NOT to see this as manipulation --- working over someone's emotions so at the end of it, they draw a conclusion you want.

I suspect Pentecost is oozing with this sort of trickery.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I tend to agree with your assessment and that poster's thoughts... however:

Can one be truly said to be having an "honest conversation(s) with God" just because they were duped into "lowering their defenses?"

I seems to me that this process will simply lead to problems later, like the cited issue concerning one's "orientation" toward God. It's best to build on a firm foundation, IMHO. This will certainly involve the emotions of the seeker and all concerned, but the emotions are not the goal.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

Pel, I see an importance of involving the whole person in the Gospel: mind, emotions, etc. But to purposefully set out to let fear take souls hostage seems counter to the Good News and "perfect love" of Jesus.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

Pel, some believe that the ends justify the means. This is how they use emotional encounters to keep people from leaving their church? While the prayer is going "God wants you to stay right where you've been planted." etc...

It turns loose this notion that anything that accomplishes a worthy result is itself worthy. Not safe IMO.

I experienced it first-hand. Realizing things I didn't agree with, I was emotionally manipulated, my intimate time with God hijacked by the stale breath of a human trying to turn someone's will back toward their own end. Of course believing that their end is God's end.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

I suppose that means that he doesn't preach repentance either.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

What did the Apostles teach/preach? Did they just get up and say "Jesus died for your sins, come if you want to?"

It depends on the crowd and who is listening. As the way of the Master puts it, grace to the humble and law to the proud. Yes, we are actually told to warn them of the judgment to come

Col 1:28 whom we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, so that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
Col 1:29 For which I also labor, striving according to the working of Him who works in me in power.

1Co 10:11 And all these things happened to them as examples; and it is written for our warning on whom the ends of the world have come.

Luk 3:7 Then he said to the crowd that came forth to be baptized by him, O generation of vipers! Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 5:21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment."

Luk 10:13 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which have been done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented a long while ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the Judgment than for you.
Luk 10:15 And you, Capernaum, which has been lifted up to Heaven, you shall be thrust down into hell.

Act 24:24 Then after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was a Jewess, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
Act 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and the Judgment to come, Felix trembled and answered, Go for this time, but taking time later, I will call for you.

It wasn't all Joel Osteen love talk. They warned. They reasoned

And read the letters to the churches in Revelation.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

First, I don't believe in Joel Osteen's self-help back massaging. Nor do I believe in a clenched-fist presentation of the Gospel. I DO believe in "love talk." How did Jesus present the Kingdom?

You threw up so many scriptures that are independent of each other that it would be quite difficult for me to go through each one on this post. I'll address only a few:


Who is the audience? Who is the "generation of vipers" he is speaking out against?

This is your text to justify scare tactics and emotional manipulation, ends-justify-the-means approaches to sharing the Good News?

Luke 10 -- this wasn't an appeal for them to come to salvation. These were groanings of Jesus. From what I read, it wasn't even a sermon.

We run short on proof-texts because altar calls (altar showdowns) have no biblical precedent -- at all. nada. none.

As far as revelation. This letter from John was HOPE not FEAR to the churches. I would wager that what makes people geek out into decoding the letter, that to most of Christianity in that day, was understood. The encoding of the letter was so that the letter would not bring consequences on them if it were interecepted by authorities. It is Hope. I'd dare say they read it, dragging people by the coat collar to the altars.

Your note about Felix. It began with this in v24 He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus. I can't help but believe Felix's fear was not stemmed only from the judgement talk, which is implied, but a fear we've seen in people who begin to "see it." The Kingdom is presented to them and they have to make a choice. Felix is a corrupt and evil man, hoping even that these talks would produce a bribe from Paul, and instead he finds himself in conviction. There's nothing here about Paul using fear to control Felix, and of course nothing of an emotional altar call showdown.

Re: The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end
 

The news is, we all deserve death, but there's a way out... here's it is....