Something I thought I would never see............
 

On Facebook, I am "friends" with a large UPC church in our area.. I was just reading what different people had posted this evening and almost fell off of my chair when I saw that this was what they said...

‎"I think we've made this relationship with God not about a relationship, but about meeting requirements."

I TOTALLY agree! And am thrilled beyond measure to see them say it. But this is not something I would have expected to see even 2 or 3 years ago. Don't get me wrong. I love this church and think the world of the the pastor.

Maybe I was stunned because I talked with someone else today who goes to a UPC church where the pastor recently said from the pulpit that they are not holding a hard line on standards anymore. (don't ask me who or where, because I will not say). Again, I am not upset about that. Just very, very surprised! Things have changed alot in the last 20 years, haven't they! (for the better, if you ask me :) )

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Ummm, glad to see they've finally figured this out.
I attend what you would call a UC church and this is what has been preached from the day I arrived here.
As a matter of fact, that's what been preached in the last three churches I have attended over a 15 year span.

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Wow, that is rather surprising! Usually you keep those thoughts to yourself. Perhaps being FB people feel less inhibited to keep their thoughts to themselves and feel they can be more honest.

it's rather a perceptive remark.

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Sadly, many are moving in this direction right now. The scripture tells us that in the last days many shall depart from the faith. We're seeing it happen.

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Where?

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Sadly??? No, it's a good thing. People are able to read and decipher for themselves what God's word says and what it will take to get to Heaven.

So many preachers have taken the Bible, meant to be a foundation for Christian living, and have gone ahead and built the house, walls and all. The UPC is nothing but a generational cycle of traditions passed down from one person to another without even the remote possibility of cross-examining what's being passed down.

So, to those who keep their traditions without the subliminal message "you're going to Hell if you don't abide by these rules," you have my respect. For the others, like OPII, who continue their over-religious, ultra-traditional, non-Biblical, and quite frankly poor judgemental non-sense, see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya 'cause I've already been down that road since it was so narrow and off balance. The more people wake up and realize all the rules, regulations, and standards are totally not of God, and will actually experience grace as it was meant to be in the Bible, then I think we'll hear of more stories of redemption and grace coming from people who have either never experienced God before or those who've been cast to the curb since they didn't measure up to a man's ridiculous rule the first time around...

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Just to point out one thing here. If you want to attack an idea or movement...the "narrow road" is not a wise choice of words. Seeing how Jesus said that is the only road that will lead to eternal life..

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First of all, you choosing to label what I said as an attack is sligtly off course. I am in no way attacking anyone or a movement. So, choose your words wisely. Yes, I fully understand the "narrow" way is the way to eternal life. But, where does grace come into the picture with such rigid rules in place? It doesn't, even though it's preached that it does...

Go ahead and defend whatever you believe. Not sure if this is the case, but I wouldn't be surprised if you are one of those who's been raised in it all your life. Religious tradition is a terrible thing to hold on to, especially when Jesus himself despised it and hated it...

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I'm going to go against my better judgement and respond to this once more. I was raised by alcoholic/drug addict parents. Mother was deeply involved in New Age and i received the Holy Ghost on the street corner when i was 12..not because i went to any kind of church that believed in it (never been to a pentecostal church) but because i read about it in the scripture and wanted HIM! 4 years later, after a great deal of difficulty holding onto my experience due to the environment i was raised in, I was led to Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ and holiness. I spent many months studying the Godhead, water baptism in the scripture and in history, and holiness. After several months of God dealing with me, i finally left the Assembly of God i had been attending and was baptized in Jesus name, got a hair cut (it was pretty long!) and began to walk in the revelation God had given me. So no, I was not raised this way. Yes! I have sought truth and come to this truth by the revelation of Jesus Christ! I pray that i NEVER back down from what HE has given me!

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Then, it sounds like we both come from environments where there was no solid faith foundation. To tell you the truth, I've been inside nearly every type denominatioal church there is...from Baptist, Methodist, Mormon, Pentecostal. The common demoniator is they all believe they've got the truth. Sadly, NO ONE has the truth they say they have...and by that, I mean all the extra stuff added to what it takes to getting to Heaven. I found my salvation on my own, salvation in Jesus with the Holy Ghost baptism. It wasn't my parents, grandparents, aunts or uncles. It was me. Becase of the emptiness I was feeling, the lonliess I was sick and tired of. So, off I went to a moderate Pentecostal church in Mesquite, TX under the pastorship of Keith Layne. Got a hold of something there, but he passed away. So, I moved away to a church in Terrell, which was quite a bit more conservative than where I was in Mesq. Not a big deal. However, things quickly took a turn for the unexpected when my folks kicked me out of the house for taking such drastic measures to clean up my life. I mean, what else was there for me to do other than get rid of this and that 'cause I wanted to be "used of God." Well, long story short, it's been a back and forth type thing with relatives over and over for the past nearly 10 years, speaking and not speaking. 3-1/2 years ago, we moved to where we are now and had started going to a church pastored by Jeff Hennigan, who's the son-in-law to the Manguns in Alex, LA. Talk about a change! So much was put into perspective, that living for God is not about extremes one way or the other. It's about you and God, on an individual basis. Still a spirit-believing chuch, no doubt, with baptisms in Jesus' name occuring often. So, after experiencing a more moderate atmosphere of worship and Christian living, I don't foresee myself leaving what I know now. For those, like I said, that choose to keep their walk in a more traditional manner, do it. Just don't view me in a different light as being a backslider since I don't follow the same path. And I've seen that all too often. It's ridiculous. I have friends who are still the same in their faith walk, yet carry on and fellowship with me as if I've always been a part of them. Makes a big difference!

Would I go back and change some things on decisions I've made, I sure would. And it would be with the same people that have been in my life for the past 10 or so years. Instead of living in regret for what choices I've made, I've had to look at it as learning experiences and believe God orchestrated every step of the way to become stronger in Him...

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amen,amen

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I am grateful for your testimony but it reinforces what I have said for a long time about old time Oneness Pentecostalism and that its legalism appeals to those who have had lives without structure. Having a clearly defined list of do's and don'ts down to the length of your shirt sleeve is appealing to these folks and certainly much easier than learning Christian principles and implementing them.

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First of all I'll give you the benefit of not thinking you meant ill by the bolded. Second, I want to say that kclee4jc has my respect. I don't agree with her and I even think God showed me different than he did her but she has my respect. So what's my problem with your post? Well it implies that kleec4jc isn't learning Christian principles and implementing them because she wants something EASIER. I mean wow! That's a big accusation. But I don't think you meant it to imply that... at least I hope you didn't!

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Sadly? Its sad when people begin to emphasize a relationship with God rather than trying to meet requirements? It was the Pharisees that demanded requirements to be met , rules to be followed. It was Jesus that encouraged His disciples to enter and maintain a relationship with God. Without having a relationship with God, the keeping of requirements is null and void.

Nicodemus was a teacher, a ruler among the Jews. Yet, he had no clue as to what it meant to be born again. He kept all the right rules, submitted to the right standards, yet he could not grasp the concept of having a personal relationship with the Lord. Now, THAT is sad. And whats even more sad is the fact that in all churches, including many Oneness churches, there is gross negligence on the part of the ministry to teach what is and what is not a true relationship with God. And the keeping of rules and standards is not necessarily the same as having a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

But I wil agree...there are requirements. There are standards. The Bible tells us what is required of us. But, we can cast out devils, and not truly know Him. We can give all we have to the poor, and still have nothing. We can keep every law, and still fall short. Thats where grace is found... in the relationship we have with God. Unless we abide in Him- have a relationship with Him- the best rule keeping we can do will end in a puff of smoke.

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When you are a conservative and you see soo many people leave the standards only to fall down that slippery slope and see them leave "truth" and "holiness" and sometimes even God... how else are you to describe that than as a great falling away?

I'll tell you what. You want to change a conservatives mind that it is not a great falling away then you are not going to do it by arguing that the falling away is good. You are going have to do it by showing that people who have "fallen away" still love and serve God.

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Be set free from the UPC..

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Be set free from yourself... ;)

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I'm a brother....
lol

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I am and have been..:highfive

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LOL! Sorry about that!

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It has been a relationship with God that has led me to the belief in the standards i hold. We are a very conservative church (much more than most upci churches). This is not soemthing i am boasting of but i am using this to to say that being conservative in standards does not mean that we believe our savation is based on such. My pastor is constantly exorting us to pray, fast and read the Word of God and make these things a part of our daily life. He teaches much more on relationship than he does standards. Matter of fact he very seldom teaches on standards, but when he does he has already taught on relationship with God to such a degree that our hearts are prepared and yearning to do what is right. I am convinced that if we will seek God and truly yearn after Him, He will lead us to the same or at least very similar convictions. Throughout my walk with God i have been on many different planes and held various view points..but I have sought God and continued to move forward. At one point I had no problem with television...now i can see how it influenced me. Previously I had no problem with wedding bands..God has showed me that they are not pleasing to Him. At one point in my walk i was perfectly fine with the thought of broadcasting on television..now i see very clearly the dangers of such. At one point i considered baptism non-essential..now i understand that it is the name of JEsus Christ applied in baptism that remmits sins (this of course is void without repentance) . I do not judge someone who does not hold exactly the same convictions i do, because i believe we all may be at different levels in our walk. But if we are not moving in the same direction, then we are not being led by the same Spirit. Perhaps someone loves God but does not at this time have a conviction against worldly sports. I believe that they may be very much saved and very much seeking God. If that is the case, I believe with the right teaching and a heart that is desiring God sincerely, God will bring them to a place of such a conviction. Paul told the Corinthian church to speak the same things..it is reasonable to expect this because we should be being led by the same Spirit. But i do not judge another brother or sister who is being led by the same Spirit as myself but is simply on higher or lower plane than myself. And there are certainly many wonderful saints in both places.

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no worries.. :heeheehee

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For some reason it seems that you are saying that moving in the same direction should be rather linear in that we should both visibly be getting closer to the same. This is not so. There are an infinite number of paths and some of those paths will take us further away from agreement before they bring us into closer agreement. So at any moment in time we can be moving further apart but that moving further apart will in a broader sense be something that will eventually bring us closer together ;)

Also I want to point out that the implications of your statement is that anyone who is not getting closer to what you are is not being led by the Spirit of God like you are... Surely you don't mean that!

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Brother, I appreciate and respect your convictions. In fact, I believe it is important that, as we strengthen our relationship with God, that we look inwardly for things that might hinder us in our wak with God. Paul told the Galations that they had run well, but then asked about the things that were hindering their progress. Admittedly, as I look inwardly, I see things hindering my walk with God. I see areas where I need to improve, grow stronger, and walk more consistently in the ways of the Lord. I think there would be something wrong with our relationship with God, if we didn't find areas that need to be improved upon. I was reading this earlier: Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. When we look to the Lord, He will give us the Light to see where we need to move closer to Him. And, I know I have some moving up to do. God bless you!

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Excellent, OA! Thank you for encouraging kclee4jc and not questioning his personal convictions and decisions for his life! :thumbsup

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Well, thats from being a moderate, standing out here in the middle of the road. I'm not so liberal as to question his convictions and call them legalistic. And I'm not so conservative as to put down those that see them as legalistic. I'm just farmer trying to mind my own garden (re: a post from a few days ago).

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Frogperson, you are correct that I did not mean ill by suggesting that this person, and many others, find the legalism of old time Pentecost comforting and easier than personally implementing Christian principles in their lives.

I do stand by the statement though and believe it 100%. Not an insult just something I consider a fact from almost 52 years of being in or around the UPC.

Most UPC folks I know can't fathom the concept of a preacher teaching principles in scripture and then allowing room for saints in their own study, prayer, and seeking God to apply them to their lives. They want that laundry list everybody has to line up with. Yes I think that is a comfort and easier than the way I described.

You cannot seperate the psychology of the human mind from the approaches different religious systems take. Old time Pentecost pounds extra biblical legalism into peoples heads then if they feel quilty about violating one of the rules that guilt is called conviction. I do believe in conviction but in old time Pentecost I believe the vast amount of the time what is called conviction is instead guilt from psychological conditioning.

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Cc1, I like what Garrison Keillor said about sitting under the heavy burden of "all the guilt and shame one human being could possibly put on another". He said they found reprieve after such a harsh sermon in the sweet corn patch. They would would indulge in the lush pleasures of loads of freshly picked sweet corn to forget guilt! Funny!

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I posted this picture on another thread. Is the professor embarrassed because he is the only one who forgot his duck? Or did God convict him for not bringing it? I believe that in nearly all cases, the answer is obvious.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/pic...pictureid=1018

Re: Something I thought I would never see.........
 

Margie,
Is this their church?

:toofunny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3lA0...layer_embedded

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Wonderful.

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CC! This is so incredibly insightful...thank you so much for contributing this.

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A weariness has set in that is putting the saints of God fast asleep. It is the sleep of death. The saints of God in the USA are overcharged with the cares of life that going on some times seems more than they can endure, especially when their church offers little of the bread that came down from heaven to replenish their strength and vitality. So much of the joy of salvation is gone replaced by a religious enthusiasm which grows old with routine.

Gone are the days when saints could hardly bear to be out of church even for one night. I saw the time when the glory of God was so brightly moving, rejoicing the people in the blessed purity of unfeigned holiness and presence of God that it was hard to dismiss a service...often saints lingered all night in the after-glow of His majestic presence, beholding the face of their heavenly lover.

I saw the time when just simply walking into the church, diseases disappeared, sick recovered and those bound in wheel chairs simply got up and walked. The power of God was present to heal...to save and deliver. The love lights of God and for each other shone as a bright as the blinding light of high noon.

Religiosity has replaced that glory. No doubt this pastor has fought the battle for so long that he is now weary and beyond going on. He, like so many of his saints would just simply rather stay home and relax instead of enduring the weariness of yet another non-productive church service.

Saints, hold on. There is about to be a heavenly burst of the glory of God to hit the earth. You will be glad that you did not give up. Something beyond what you can possibly imagine is just ahead.

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I've been waiting, longing and praying for a move of God like what we read about in the NT but what makes YOU so sure it is soon to come?

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I saw it in 1978. I might have the time to tell the whole story later. Of certainty, that day is approaching when the black clouds of evil covering the earth that hides the face of heaven will be rolled away as a scroll to reveal the greatest sunburst of God's electrifying power and glory. They that prepare themselves now will be used of God in a mighty way in that day. Meanwhile, don't be discouraged. Remain faithful. You will be glad that you did. Meanwhile: "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness..."

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God doesn't want you to be a better Christian or a better Apostolic. God doesn't want you to be a better you. God doesn't want you following standards and traditions like they make Him pleased with you.

God desires that you be conformed into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. That's right, that Christ be formed in you. God desires that you partake in the divine nature through living in a oneness with Christ that's so deep and intimate you feel Jesus' heart beating in your chest, feel impressed by Christ's thoughts, find yourself speaking Christ's words. The Father desires that you become... a vessel of Jesus Christ. Not so that you might do things FOR God... but so that you can do things IN Christ by virtue of you being in Christ... and Christ being in you. When SELF dies and only Jesus lives in you.... you will discover a victory and power like you've never known. Because Jesus doesn't fail. His prayers are always answered. Jesus never fails to heal the sick. When it's Christ working IN YOU and not YOU WORKING FOR CHRIST... then we'll see the revival we've always dreamed of.

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We should be reminded that passivity has never won a crown.

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I'd LOVE to read the whole story!

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1978... Did you witness this after returning from the theater where you just saw the late showing of Grease?

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I had a dream a long time ago and I know it was from God. I was in a clinic and there was a woman with a sick child - very ill. Chairs lined the waiting room walls with young Hispanic women (don't know what that was about), the chairs stretched around a corner. I sat next to the woman and asked if I could pray for the child. When I began to pray, the Holy Ghost fell and all of the young women began to cry and speak in tongues. In the dream, I understood that somewhere in the lives of these women, they had received the Holy Ghost, but things had transpired in their lives that moved them away from Him. What I felt was that they represented people all over and that one day, when we have a move of God like we want to see, He will restore those that life and circumstance tried to destroy - in a mighty, powerful, outpouring.

I know that I will see this dream come to pass. I don't know when, but I will.