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-   -   The Future of the Oneness Pentecostal Movement (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=5962)

Elihu 07-14-2007 08:40 PM
The Future of the Oneness Pentecostal Movement
 
The new Forward (a magazine for UPCI preachers) came out this week.

In it, there is an article titled "Where Have All the Young Ministers Gone?". The entire Forward is about mentoring and ministerial transition from one generation to the next.

In this article, the writer mentions that of the 9100 licensed UPCI ministers, under 400 of them are below the age of thirty. Hence the question, "Where have all the young ministers gone?" It is my belief that the UPCI is in danger. Under 400 ministers under the age of thirty? Where have they all gone?
Lest I am accused of being an alarmist, consider the theme of last year's General Conference was "Passing the Mantle". Now we have an entire Forward dedicated to the problem.

Why are there so few young ministers and what can be done to remedy the problem?

Ronzo 07-14-2007 08:41 PM
I have my own thoughts about it, but I won't share them...

deseret 07-14-2007 08:42 PM
Mentor the young men, but allow them to be themselves. Don't expect them to be molded into your image. :)

Elihu 07-14-2007 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronzo (Post 185197)
I have my own thoughts about it, but I won't share them...
Please share, and be brutally honest.

Praxeas 07-14-2007 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamgar1 (Post 185196)
The new Forward (a magazine for UPCI preachers) came out this week.

In it, there is an article titled "Where Have All the Young Ministers Gone?". The entire Forward is about mentoring and ministerial transition from one generation to the next.

In this article, the writer mentions that of the 9100 licensed UPCI ministers, under 400 of them are below the age of thirty. Hence the question, "Where have all the young ministers gone?" It is my belief that the UPCI is in danger. Under 400 ministers under the age of thirty? Where have they all gone?
Lest I am accused of being an alarmist, consider the theme of last year's General Conference was "Passing the Mantle". Now we have an entire Forward dedicated to the problem.

Why are there so few young ministers and what can be done to remedy the problem?
I have to ask, why do they need to be licensed to minister? As for Pastors, why even bother aspiring to pastor when the only way to become a pastor anymore is to become on of an established church. It's very hard to start a church let alone getting approval to start one.

rgcraig 07-14-2007 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 185214)
I have to ask, why do they need to be licensed to minister? As for Pastors, why even bother aspiring to pastor when the only way to become a pastor anymore is to become on of an established church. It's very hard to start a church let alone getting approval to start one.
So they can pay the dues.

Praxeas 07-14-2007 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 185215)
So they can pay the dues.
I guess, while at the same time many of them will not get compensated for their duties....like most of us unless you are music directer...winning souls, teaching bible studies, spending hours in prayer and alter working is not considered ministry or at least not a compensatable ministry :choir

SDG 07-14-2007 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 185214)
I have to ask, why do they need to be licensed to minister? As for Pastors, why even bother aspiring to pastor when the only way to become a pastor anymore is to become on of an established church. It's very hard to start a church let alone getting approval to start one.
Not if your Daddy's or Daddy in law is the pastor

SDG 07-14-2007 09:35 PM
Quite frankly it's about time someone took notice ... this Forward article is at least 3-4 years in the making ...

Brett Prince 07-14-2007 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamgar1 (Post 185199)
Please share, and be brutally honest.
I don't think you are going to get what you are hoping for here.

I think I could summarize Ron's basic thoughts on this in a few sentences for you...but that would be unkind.

SDG 07-14-2007 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 185217)
I guess, while at the same time many of them will not get compensated for their duties....like most of us unless you are music directer...winning souls, teaching bible studies, spending hours in prayer and alter working is not considered ministry or at least not a compensatable ministry :choir
We only compensate the orators.

Scott Hutchinson 07-14-2007 09:39 PM
I'm just curious how many younger preachers are there in the ALJC ?

Ronzo 07-14-2007 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Prince (Post 185225)
I don't think you are going to get what you are hoping for here.

I think I could summarize Ron's basic thoughts on this in a few sentences for you...but that would be unkind.
My thoughts are unkind, Brett?

Care to elaborate since you seem to know what I'm thinking and what I would say?

SDG 07-14-2007 09:53 PM
You've reached critical mass when less than 5% of your ministers are under 30.

How many of these 400 are sons of ministers, sons-in-law ... or family members???

RevDWW 07-14-2007 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 185242)
You've reached critical mass when less than 5% of your ministers are under 30.

How many of these 400 are sons of ministers, sons-in-law ... or family members???
Could it be that many do not seek the ministry because the feel they have no pedigree to help them along?

Scott Hutchinson 07-14-2007 10:00 PM
None of my business ,but could high budget fees be the reason many ministers are independent ?

SDG 07-14-2007 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDWW (Post 185245)
Could it be that many do not seek the ministry
because the feel they have no pedigree to help them along?
Part of the problem, Dan.

Felicity 07-14-2007 10:00 PM
Lack of real burden, compassion and love for lost humanity? Could that figure into it at all?

The thot just occurred to me. I now you don't have to be ordained or have a ministerial license to really love souls but might that be a catalyst that would propel young men forward to getting involved in full time ministry?

SDG 07-14-2007 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity (Post 185249)
Lack of real burden, compassion and love for lost humanity? Could that figure into it at all?

The thot just occurred to me. I now you don't have to be ordained or have a ministerial license to really love souls but might that be a catalyst that would propel young men forward to getting involved in full time ministry?
Yet when you create a culture that almost deifies and over-emphasizes other aspects of the Kingdom without proper balance ... then you will get this mentality.

ALVIN 07-14-2007 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamgar1 (Post 185196)
The new Forward (a magazine for UPCI preachers) came out this week.

In it, there is an article titled "Where Have All the Young Ministers Gone?". The entire Forward is about mentoring and ministerial transition from one generation to the next.

In this article, the writer mentions that of the 9100 licensed UPCI ministers, under 400 of them are below the age of thirty. Hence the question, "Where have all the young ministers gone?" It is my belief that the UPCI is in danger. Under 400 ministers under the age of thirty? Where have they all gone?
Lest I am accused of being an alarmist, consider the theme of last year's General Conference was "Passing the Mantle". Now we have an entire Forward dedicated to the problem.

Why are there so few young ministers and what can be done to remedy the problem?

A further question would be whether or not this is reflective of the demographic of the UPCI as a whole. What percentage of the adult members of the UPCI are in the 21 - 30 age bracket?

I think that the answer to the original question is quite complex, and without any single simple cause.

Felicity 07-14-2007 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 185247)
None of my business ,but could high budget fees be the reason many ministers are independent ?
I don't think so really. Are the budget fees that high?

I would think that a budget fee wouldn't be much of a deterrent if men could see real benefit and value and reward in belonging to an organization they felt was viable, of benefit to them and going somewhere.

rgcraig 07-14-2007 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronzo (Post 185234)
My thoughts are unkind, Brett?

Care to elaborate since you seem to know what I'm thinking and what I would say?
I didn't read that at all......I believe he was saying to post what he thinks you would say would be unkind - not that what you would post would be unkind.

Felicity 07-14-2007 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDWW (Post 185245)
Could it be that many do not seek the ministry because the feel they have no pedigree to help them along?
We had NO pedigree. :) None whatsover and that kind of thinking never ever ever occurred to us or was part of our mentality at all.

Speaking personally of course.

I think God makes room for the gifts and calling He puts on those He chooses. You don't have to strive, push or shove to get to where God is going to take you anyhow. :)

pelathais 07-14-2007 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamgar1 (Post 185196)
The new Forward (a magazine for UPCI preachers) came out this week.

In it, there is an article titled "Where Have All the Young Ministers Gone?". The entire Forward is about mentoring and ministerial transition from one generation to the next.

In this article, the writer mentions that of the 9100 licensed UPCI ministers, under 400 of them are below the age of thirty. Hence the question, "Where have all the young ministers gone?" It is my belief that the UPCI is in danger. Under 400 ministers under the age of thirty? Where have they all gone?
Lest I am accused of being an alarmist, consider the theme of last year's General Conference was "Passing the Mantle". Now we have an entire Forward dedicated to the problem.

Why are there so few young ministers and what can be done to remedy the problem?
This does bring up a touchy range of issues that are often difficult to objectify and discuss impassionedly. I appreciate "Dan just being Dan", but in the FWIW department- the dynamic of the father-son and/or father-son-in-law relationship can also be very bruising and abusive.

If I could bill some of my "family" for services I have given to them over the years I would have a real wad of dough right now. If I could just get the last 3 paychecks from ... that he has owed me for over 10 years I would be driving a new car right now.

The UPC in general has a dynamic that inhibits the development of young ministers. I could give you quite a list of the wounded, disfellowshipped and even the dead.

There's a new church starting services tomorrow in my city- the younger minister is branching off because he has been forbidden to preach in the church he helped to found many years ago - over a "control" issue involving the current pastor's wife and her self esteem problem.

Most of the churches in our area have some sort of bitterness involved in their founding. Fortunately my current pastor/superintendent has the vision to allow the young men to start something of their own. He bucks the evil trend that I have tried to describe.

"Where have all the young men gone...?" They got real educations and wised up.

Scott Hutchinson 07-14-2007 10:06 PM
Could it be that many younger ministers are staying independent or joining other fellowships ?

SDG 07-14-2007 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALVIN (Post 185252)
A further question would be whether or not this is reflective of the demographic of the UPCI as a whole. What percentage of the adult members of the UPCI are in the 21 - 30 age bracket?

I think that the answer to the original question is quite complex, and without any single simple cause.
I don't know what that number is ... but that demographic has always been the most active,vibrant, innovative and dare say, talented, in the movement ....

Ever go to a North American Youth Congress????

Brett Prince 07-14-2007 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronzo (Post 185234)
My thoughts are unkind, Brett?

Care to elaborate since you seem to know what I'm thinking and what I would say?
Sorry, Ron--I meant that my remarks might seem flippant and unkind...as they would come across as highly sarcastic--since we obviously are not on the same page on a number of things.

I just don't think Shamgar is looking for the kind of ideas that you would present is all.

No offense intended. I'll be glad to delete my post if you should so desire.

RandyWayne 07-14-2007 10:07 PM
As pastors are losing some of the Lordship-type status that many have used to enjoy through the 20th century, what are left are men who's only remaining reason to pastor is to serve God. It is a weeding out!

But it also leaves a shortage, but the cream rises to the top.

SDG 07-14-2007 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 185256)
This does bring up a touchy range of issues that are often difficult to objectify and discuss impassionedly. I appreciate "Dan just being Dan", but in the FWIW department- the dynamic of the father-son and/or father-son-in-law relationship can also be very bruising and abusive.

If I could bill some of my "family" for services I have given to them over the years I would have a real wad of dough right now. If I could just get the last 3 paychecks from ... that he has owed me for over 10 years I would be driving a new car right now.

The UPC in general has a dynamic that inhibits the development of young ministers. I could give you quite a list of the wounded, disfellowshipped and even the dead.

There's a new church starting services tomorrow in my city- the younger minister is branching off because he has been forbidden to preach in the church he helped to found many years ago - over a "control" issue involving the current pastor's wife and her self esteem problem.

Most of the churches in our area have some sort of bitterness involved in their founding. Fortunately my current pastor/superintendent has the vision to allow the young men to start something of their own. He bucks the evil trend that I have tried to describe.

"Where have all the young men gone...?" They got real educations and wised up.
I agree that the nepotism is part of the problem ... control issues are also an enormous factor .... some have become fiefdom-obsessed rather than Kingdom minded ..

Felicity 07-14-2007 10:09 PM
Not just the cream rises to the top but the cream that God ordains to rise to the top does. Who determines what the "top" is? Who determines what defines "cream"?

I believe firmly that God (being God and all ;)) has a lot to do with who does and doesn't "rise".

Elihu 07-14-2007 10:10 PM
I think Brett Prince is attempting to paint a horrible picture of both Ronzo and myself. I only asked for brutal honesty. There was nothing untoward in the request.

SDG 07-14-2007 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Prince (Post 185259)
Sorry, Ron--I meant that my remarks might seem flippant and unkind...as they would come across as highly sarcastic--since we obviously are not on the same page on a number of things.

I just don't think Shamgar is looking for the kind of ideas that you would present is all.

No offense intended. I'll be glad to delete my post if you should so desire.
That's how I read it ... I think you and Ron have a lot more in common than you think

Elihu 07-14-2007 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 185256)
This does bring up a touchy range of issues that are often difficult to objectify and discuss impassionedly. I appreciate "Dan just being Dan", but in the FWIW department- the dynamic of the father-son and/or father-son-in-law relationship can also be very bruising and abusive.

If I could bill some of my "family" for services I have given to them over the years I would have a real wad of dough right now. If I could just get the last 3 paychecks from ... that he has owed me for over 10 years I would be driving a new car right now.

The UPC in general has a dynamic that inhibits the development of young ministers. I could give you quite a list of the wounded, disfellowshipped and even the dead.

There's a new church starting services tomorrow in my city- the younger minister is branching off because he has been forbidden to preach in the church he helped to found many years ago - over a "control" issue involving the current pastor's wife and her self esteem problem.

Most of the churches in our area have some sort of bitterness involved in their founding. Fortunately my current pastor/superintendent has the vision to allow the young men to start something of their own. He bucks the evil trend that I have tried to describe.

"Where have all the young men gone...?" They got real educations and wised up.
Did the young man leave the UPC?

SDG 07-14-2007 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamgar1 (Post 185264)
I think Brett Prince is attempting to paint a horrible picture of both Ronzo and myself. I only asked for brutal honesty. There was nothing untoward in the request.
Let's stick to the thread, fellas .... this topic is important

Scott Hutchinson 07-14-2007 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity (Post 185253)
I don't think so really. Are the budget fees that high?

I would think that a budget fee wouldn't be much of a deterrent if men could see real benefit and value and reward in belonging to an organization they felt was viable, of benefit to them and going somewhere.
Well what happens if someone is struggling and can't pay the budget fees is ,does an org. pay them while someone is trying to get back on their feet ?

mizpeh 07-14-2007 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity (Post 185249)
Lack of real burden, compassion and love for lost humanity? Could that figure into it at all?
And maybe a lack of faith in God. If God has called someone to preach, He will also enable them to do his will. Trusting God isn't easy during the trials.

My pastor recently spoke to the DS of the Western District and found out this man has many daughter churches spawned off the church God used him to establish. He acts as a mentor. He feels we should follow the disciples example and send out two ministers to start new works according to the calling of God. Acts 13:2-4 and Luke 10:1

RandyWayne 07-14-2007 10:12 PM
Quote:
Not just the cream rises to the top but the cream that God ordains to rise to the top does. Who determines what the "top" is? Who determines what defines "cream"?

I believe firmly that God (being God and all ) has a lot to do with who does and doesn't "rise".
I think it is a very good analogy because it shows the real motivations for someone wanting to become a pastor. Is it to serve God or is it to enjoy the fringe benefits that he may have seen other ministers of repute enjoy?

Felicity 07-14-2007 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 185269)
Well what happens if someone is struggling and can't pay the budget fees is ,does an org. pay them while someone is trying to get back on their feet ?
Where there's a will there's a way bro. And God has been known to supply a need or two. ;)

RandyWayne 07-14-2007 10:13 PM
Wow. In 45 seconds, 4 posts appeared between what I read and was responding too! LOL

RevDWW 07-14-2007 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity (Post 185255)
We had NO pedigree. :) None whatsover and that kind of thinking never ever ever occurred to us or was part of our mentality at all.

Speaking personally of course.

I think God makes room for the gifts and calling He puts on those He chooses. You don't have to strive, push or shove to get to where God is going to take you anyhow. :)
I have no pedigree, but my Dad is in charge of everything!!!!!!:winkgrin Heavenly Father that is.......:thumbsup

I have always been in support roles and never paid for them. I have always had a full time job outside of my ministry. Of course I have been paid when I've preached out. There have been times that I thought it would have made it easier for me if I had a Dad in the ministry, but easier is not always better.......God has been very good to me!!!!!!


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