Sinful union?
 

Wikipedia begins its definition of "Spiritual Death" with the following:

Because of the abrupt realities involved, most of us better grasp the concept of physical death than we do spiritual death. When we see a loved one lying in a coffin we realize the real person is no longer present but has "departed." We recognize that a separation has occurred, that a union of spirit and flesh has been broken.

When we begin to think of spiritual death we attempt to understand what it means for the human spirit to have "died" because of the Fall. We attempt to again grasp the idea of separation and what it meant for the Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two.

When the human spirit departs from the physical body only a lifeless vestige of the real person remains. In like fashion, the Spirit of Life departed from the human spirit leaving only a darkened shadow of God's real intended creation. The intended creation involved fellowship with God through a union of His Spirit with ours.

Sin broke union of man's spirit with God by forcing that which was holy to depart. Sin brought separation - the wage of Sin was death.

I think most on this forum would agree with this so far. Some might even think this elementary.

Sin brought separation - now let's focus on reunion and get to a question.

In order for the human spirit to become alive again there must be a reestablishment of the union between the human spirit and God. The human spirit must be quickened to life by virtue of being united with the Spirit of God. For this to take place that which causes separation must be removed.

Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?

Is this not precisely what most here would say happened in the case of Cornelius in Acts 10 and happens to anyone who speaks in tongues prior to being water baptized?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

God bless

Brilliant as always? Considering you have only 4 other posts. Yet I was reading them recently ... and your understanding of the New Birth and John 3 is something that we all could learn from

Your thoughts on why God cannot dwell in a sinful vessel is one reason why the doctrine of baptismal remission holds no merit ...

Also, remission is not a different concept than forgiveness ... the original Greek uses the same word "aphesis".

Perhaps you can speak about the pet verse objection that will undoubtedly surface in this thread ....

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 KJV

Where do you get the concept that God will not dwell where there is sin? Scripture please?

Adino,
What happens when we sin? Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?

When King David sinned by committing adultery and murder why did he ask God not to take his Holy Spirit from him? He had already sinned yet he did not feel the Holy Spirit leave him.

Adino,

What do you mean by the bolded part?

When did this union take place? Are you referring to a similar type of union which we have now with God when we are filled with the Spirit of Christ?

But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 1Cor 6:17

Hmmm, I guess I'm not too quick to catch on. Are you speaking about Adam and God in the garden of Eden? Why do you think Adam was filled with the Holy Spirit? What scripture tells us this?

You haven't proved your point about the union between the human spirit and God. I agree sin separates us from God because the Bible clearly states it so.

We all are encased in sinful flesh. By your logic I wonder how God can dwell in us since we have sin abiding/dwelling in our flesh.

Romans 7:17-23 NASV So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.


Not everyone would agree with you because some folks believe we are forgiven at repentance and sins are remitted at baptism.

I understand forgiveness and remission to be the same Greek word, so yes, if you are filled with the Spirit before water baptism then your sins still need to be blotted out. I'm not sure I have ever heard anyone preach on how our hearts or consciences are sin stained. Or what does the Bible means by 'the body of sin' that is removed by the circumcision of the Spirit which happens at water baptism. What is meant by the 'body of sin' which is always associated with burial and water baptism.

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-6 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Is having a body of sins that needs to be blotted out or remitted or forgivne the same as being a sinner?

As for Cornelius, Peter said: Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him Acts 10:34-35

Cornelius was accepted of God and worked righteousness. He was not sinning actively with forethought.


A couple of questions for you. How do you interpret these scriptures?

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Acts 15:7-9....Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Hello KwaiQ, nice to meet you.

The concept is that a holy God cannot fellowship with sin simply because sin causes separation from God. Sin violates the sovereignty of God. Sin says that God's rule is not to be followed thereby making the one who commits the sin "a god himself" (Gen 3:5) by taking his word above that of the true God. Lordship transfers from the true God to the transgressor. Since there is but one God, this breach of the first commandment simply cannot be. The wage of sin is death (Romans 6:23). You cannot have sin present and God present at the same time. The transgressor vies for Lordship when he sins. God's Lordship demands that all sin be removed from his presence. Sin's consequence is separation.

Aside from this simple fact of sin's consequence we are also to understand that by virtue of being in Christ we are "in God" (Romans 8:1, 12:5; John 6:56, 10:37 ). We are to understand that God is holy (Psalm 99:5; Lev 11:44,45; 1Peter 1:15,16). We are to understand that in God there is no unrighteousness (Psalm 92:15), no darkness (1John 1:5) and, above all, in God there is no sin (1John 3:5).

Because God does not change (Mal 3:6) his holiness cannot be compromised. Therefore, we who are united with God via his Spirit must be viewed as sanctified in his eyes. Only those sanctified are acceptable to God (Romans 15:16). We are saved through sanctification of the Spirit (2Thessalonians 2:13). We are sanctified by virtue of being "in Christ/in Him" by the Spirit (1Corinthians 1:2; 6:11). God will not/cannot fellowship with the unsanctified. In fact, the priests were to be sanctified when in His presence or die (It seems that pesky principle will simply not go away. Where there is sin there is always death/separation.) (Exodus 28; 30; 40; Numbers 18). This brings us back to Cornelius. How could Cornelius be unsanctified yet have the indwelling Spirit?

Can you help us to understand how God became spiritually united with Cornelius before sin, the cause of his separation from God, was removed?

Thanks

Hello mizpeh, nice to meet you also.

Q: What happens when we sin (after receiving salvation)?
A: We recognize our sin, realize God dealt with it on Calvary and thank him for not holding it against us who have faith in him.

Q: Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?
A: No. We abide in him and he in us.

These answers should cover your David question as well.

I see you have another post.... I will try to get to it when I can.

God bless

Mizpeh,I mean that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Life. Man's spirit only truly lives when in fellowship with the Spirit of Life.

The eternal life taken from man in the garden is given to those today who have faith in God through Christ. This Spirit of eternal Life is the Spirit of God himself. Oneness Pentecostals would stress the point that the Holy Spirit (of Life) is God himself. Again, we only truly live when in holy fellowship with God. Since death speaks of separation and Adam died spiritually in the garden we must consider how his spirit was separated from God.

The point is that Adam began in spiritual life. His sin resulted in not only physical death, but spiritual death as well. Adam's human spirit was no longer in communion with the eternal life giving Spirit of God as it had been before the fall.

He can fellowship with us because our sin has been dealt with. We have been reconciled unto God and saved by his life. We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account and rest in his finished saving work on Calvary.

Are you saying he did not need sin remission and the indwelling Spirit?

I believe that what God cleanses should not be called common (or unclean). His purification is sufficient.

I realize God gave Cornelius the Spirit only AFTER he heard the Gospel and believed. God, who alone knows the heart of man, recognized that Cornelius' heart had received the good news of Christ and gave him the Spirit as witness to this internal miracle which had just taken place within the confines of Cornelius' heart. Cornelius' heart was purified by faith and the Spirit which was given to Cornelius to bear witness of his faith then overwhelmed him the point of manifesting tongues. This manifestation was for the benefit of Peter to show him that God had poured out eternal life on the Gentiles as well as on the Jews. Peter's peers later recognize this when they voice to all that God had granted also to the gentiles repentance unto life.

Thank you for your thoughts, mizpeh. God bless.

Back to work in the morning. Not quite sure when I'll be able to return. If there is more you would like to discuss I will try to get back when I free up some more time.

mizpeh,I mean that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Life. Man's spirit only truly lives when in fellowship with the Spirit of Life.

The eternal life taken from man in the garden is given to those today who have faith in God through Christ. This Spirit of eternal Life is the Spirit of God himself. Oneness Pentecostals would stress the point that the Holy Spirit (of Life) is God himself. Again, we only truly live when in holy fellowship with God.

The point is that Adam began in spiritual life. His sin resulted in not only physical death, but spiritual death as well. Adam's human spirit was no longer in communion with the eternal life giving Spirit of God as it had been before the fall.

He can fellowship with us because our sin has been dealt with. We have been reconciled unto God and saved by his life. We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account and rest in his finished saving work on Calvary.

Are you saying he did not need sin remission and the indwelling Spirit?

I believe that what God cleanses should not be called common (or unclean). His purification is sufficient.

I realize God gave Cornelius the Spirit only AFTER he heard the Gospel and believed. God, who alone knows the heart of man, recognized that Cornelius' heart had received the good news of Christ and gave him the Spirit as witness to this internal miracle which had just taken place within the confines of Cornelius' heart. Cornelius' heart was purified by faith and the Spirit which was given to Cornelius to bear witness of his faith then overwhelmed him the point of manifesting tongues. This manifestation was for the benefit of Peter to show him that God had poured out eternal life on the Gentiles as well as on the Jews. Peter's peers later recognize this when they voice to all that God had granted also to the gentiles repentance unto life.

Thank you for your thoughts, mizpeh. God bless.

Back to work in the morning. Not quite sure when I'll be able to return.

Looks like he is going all TaeKwonDo on y'all


http://www.yboti.com/sattler/images/shelby.jpg

Please return Sensai.

Because of what Jesus has done, 'paid for our sins', we/everyone has been counted as righteous and been reconciled to God. That is our legal position, however we must walk thru the door (salvation/faith) in order to have actual relationship with our heavenly Father. Jesus said He is the "door" to the sheepfold.

An individual may have inherited (free gift) of millions, yet if the individual does not draw on that inheritance, he will continue to wallow in poverty and not live out any of his inheritance. It is still hid, however his physical life is not enhance by this inheritance.

Mizpeh must every verse speaking of baptism always refer to water baptism only or exclusively ....?

Where do you get this notion that water baptism activates the Spirit to regeneration?

John the Baptist was clear that what made Jesus baptism distinctive from his own baptism was not water ... but a baptism from above ... or Spiritual New Birth and immersion.

The efficacy is in the Spirit of Life....

31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel." 32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

A look at Romans 6:

http://www.bible-truth.org/Rom6-whatbaptism.html

I would like to suggest that the reference is to both spiritual and water baptism. You cannot separate the symbol from that which it symbolizes. I believe Paul is using what water baptism signifies to strengthening his point of verse two, by reminding them of the purpose and significance of their water baptism.

Water baptism pictures the death, burial and resurrection with Christ where the sins of the world were conquered and put to death. In reality this is not an either/or situation, because both spiritual and water baptism are in view. Paul was saying to the Romans that “God forbid that you who died to sin should continue on in sin to appropriate more grace. Remember what your water baptism meant in that it symbolized that you received God’s spiritual baptism in salvation and you were placed into Jesus Christ and to His death” (my expanded paraphrase).

In the following verse Paul continues to support his premise by reminding them that:

1. Because of their being buried with Christ in baptism they should walk in a new life (v. 4).

2. Because they have been planted in the “likeness” of Christ’s death which destroyed the body of sin . . . that they should not serve sin (vv. 5-6).

3. Paul uses the example of a dead person. “He that is dead is freed from sin” (v. 7).

4. Because we are dead to sin we should live for Him because sin has no more control over the believer (vv. 8-9).

5. Because Christ died to sin once and now lives unto God the believer should consider himself dead to sin and alive unto God (vv. 10-11).

6. The believer should not let sin reign in their body and obey its lusts, nor let yourself sin (vv. 12-13). 7. Because a believer is under grace and not under law then sin should not dominate his life (v. 14).

If we see the reference to baptism as spiritual baptism and which water baptism signifies there is no confusion and the illustration Paul is using is clear and well makes its point; Christ died to destroy the penalty of sin, which baptism signifies, and that was one reason for not continuing in sin. However, we must deal with the problem of those who see water baptism as being a part of receiving salvation. To answer the problem all we must do is to apply sound biblical hermeneutical principles. One foundational principle of interpretation is the all Scripture must be interpreted within the analogy of the faith. This means that God’s word does not contradict itself and that all God says is always consistent with everything else He has said. Scriptures such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, and many other passages clearly teach that salvation is not acquired through ritual or any religious work. Baptism is a religious rite (work) and therefore has no saving properties and is not necessary for salvation.

Further the example in the New Testament is that water baptism always follows the exercise of saving faith and is a public act of submission that pictures and identifies the person being baptized with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection and with the local congregation of believers.

Finally, both water baptism symbolizes Christ’s work of redemption on the cross. Our baptism is only a picture of what He did. The act of redemption could only be done by Jesus Christ, the perfect Lamb of God. The whole point of baptism is to point to and picture Christ’s sacrifice and atonement for sin and it is simply illogical to try to present it as being necessary for salvation. Jesus’s death, burial and resurrection paid the price something we could not pay [or need to re-enact].

To use this passage to support baptismal regeneration is simply dishonest and a blatant violation of the New Testament teaching of salvation. Thus, those who hold to the position that this is sacramental water baptism have no biblical grounds to do so. It is spiritual baptism which is the sole work of God that actually places the believer into Christ and into His death. Water baptism is a proper symbol instituted by God to illustrate God’s action in salvation that could not be seen. Spiritual baptism and its outward symbol proclaims the same truth and cannot be separated. I like the way Robinson states this: “If we ask how this critical union was effected, Paul’s answer is that it is through baptism (Rom. 6:4) or, more fully, in baptism . . . through faith” (Col. 2:12).” In verse 3, the baptism is of water that symbolizes the spiritual baptism that Christ accomplished for the believer in His death, burial, and resurrection.

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What was Peter's message at Cornelius' house? ... was it the same PAJC message that claims that water baptism causes remission of sin or activates the Holy Spirit to regeneration?

I think not!!! ... we have 3 accounts/witnesses of his message that day ... all from Peter's mouth ...

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Witness #1 [Acts 10]

The first account is a transcript of the Gospel message preached by Peter at Cornelius home:

The only mention of water baptism here is that of John the Baptist's in verse 37 ...

but verse 43 ... tells us what Peter preached and believed would result in forgiveness/remission of sins. The same message he preached at Pentecost when he echoed the words of the prophet Joel and all the other prophets who proclaimed ... "whosever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

We know the sequence of events that then followed after those sitting in room heard and believed this message. They were filled w/ the Holy Ghost ... and then ... and only then were they baptized.

-------------------------------------

Witness #2 [Acts 11]

Peter then recounts this same experience at Cornelius' house and his message to a group of circumcised Jewish believers in Chapter 11.

Please take special notice that Peter in rehearsing his message remembered the Lord's words [ also John 1] when he made distinction between John's water baptism and the promise of a better baptism ... that of the Spirit.

He also says that the gift both the Jewish believers and Gentile believers received came through belief ... the Jewish brethren acknowleged that LIFE was granted by God to the Gentiles through repentance [v.18]

Please also note that Peter never says that forgiveness came from their subsequent water baptism or water baptism is necessary for the New Birth.

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Witness #3 [Acts 15]

Peter is compelled to recount his message and the response of those that gathered in Cornelius' house to the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Peter sought to defend against those who felt that an outer ritual, in this case, circumcision, was necessary for salvation. Also, conspicuously missing is a stress on their water baptisms in this account ... for a guy like Peter that's "strong" on doctrine it's puzzling that it never even comes up in the conversation.


The first speech of the council was given by Peter who was no doubt wondering why the issue had not been settled in the eleventh chapter of Acts when he reported the conversion of the household of Cornelius as follows:

Peter again rehearsed how that the Gentiles had received the Gospel from him and believed, no doubt remembering his own words at the house of Cornelius: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43).

He goes on to say, not that baptism purified them ... but it was the Lord Jesus Christ through their faith in Him ... and that God Himself had verified this by giving them the same baptism of the Holy Spirit that the disciples received on the Day of Pentecost.

Peter knew that no one had ever kept the Law of Moses, especially those who were making the argument that day. He therefore wanted to know why the Judaizers were asking the Gentile disciples to do something that neither themselves nor the Old Testament fathers were able to do. He also stresses that their purification came by faith - not by water baptism.

Peter then concluded his argument by saying in effect, no it's not the baptism or a circumcision that saves them but ... GRACE:

The Apostle Paul confirmed this same affirmation when he wrote to the Romans:

Their Jewish hearts must be purified by faith apart from the Mosaic Law and
circumcision or else remain unpurified altogether. Peter would later take the position that these Judaizers were false prophets. Although they professed Christ to be the Messiah who died on the cross, they were denying Him by their gospel of circumcision and law,

as Peter stated:

Peter’s words silenced the multitude at the Jerusalem Council so that Paul and Barnabas could be called upon to give their report.


------------------------------------------

Where is the doctrine of baptismal remission/regeneration in Peter's message at Cornelius' house ...? Why isn't his doctrinal stress and message impetus the 3 step template offered by the W&S crowd? Why is there no mention of sins being washed away through a religious rite like baptism?

I know that my PAJC brethren will try to read in between the lines and ask us to make the "revelatory" connections they've made ... but even the most elementary reader of Peter's witness sees that the 3 step salvational process isn't the core of his spoken message to Cornelius.

Did he forget his notes on the New Birth at Pentecost?

J-Roc,
That is ancient and hilarious! Where in the world did you dig this up?

Wait.... you know, this was a demo at an ALJC Michigan District camp meeting. I remember the day. I gashed my thumb on the concrete.

My hair is a little grayer at the moment.

Thanks for the memories. Nowadays I'd be more apt to Jujutsu y'all :killinme

On to work....

This is putting limits on God where God Himself placed none. Sin is what separates us from God. Sin does not separate God from God. God is omnipresent. He can and does go everywhere. He fills everything. The only thing we can do is not worship Him or follow Him by continuing in lawlessness or "sin".

This is not "proof" that God does not use water baptism for the remission of sin. The blood does remit sin, I whole-heartedly agree, but if the blood stays dripping off of the cross, and never applied to the life of the believer, than it is of no effect. It must be applied to be of value for our redemption from the effects of sin.

So the blood is applied how and when, Kwai Q?

AW ... we do our homework.

KwaiQ wrote:This does not make much sense. Maybe you can elaborate. What puts limits on God? If I would say that God can't sin, would that be putting a limit on God? If his holiness doesn't demand that sin be dealt with for fellowship with the human spirit to take place, then please tell me why fellowship was ever broken off in the first place. Maybe it would help if you explained to us what it meant for man to die spiritually. Never said it did. Where'd this come from?Yes... but what's your point again? Again, please define spiritual death. What happened in the Fall?

Just picking your mind a bit....

God bless, friend

Spiritual death is separation of man from God by man's actions. Sin does not mean "a place God can't go".

You (I think) are implying that because Cornelius was not baptized he was still in sin, so how could God's Spirit fill him?

When Cornelius repented, it left him in a repentant state meaning he had turned his back on his disobedience and sought after God. God's Spirit filled him, renewing his Spirit. (Titus 3:5) The only thing left was to accept Jesus' death on the cross by applying the blood. (Romans 6:4)


Putting limits on God was the statement you made "The concept is that a holy God cannot fellowship with sin simply because sin causes separation from God. Sin violates the sovereignty of God."

God can be anywhere. Even with a sinner. Otherwise no one could be saved. Because we are all sinners. It does not make much sense to me why you believe "sin" is like a physical substance or something?

Sin is the condition of a man who has chosen to disobey God's commands.

Hope this helps clarify my response to your post.

What's interesting ... KwaiQ is that if you were teaching holiness standards and God's holiness you'd use a lot the language and biblical principals used by Adino in this thread....

As for your argument that God is everywhere .... hence even w/ a sinner ...
this is negating that which is spiritual ... while focusing in only 3-D ... height, width, depth,

In your doctrine and newly adapted 3-D model... do feel that since God is everywhere ... he, the Holy Spirit, already fills the heart of, and communes with, the unrepentant sinner who hasn't manifested the evidence of speaking in other tongues ... I think not!!!!

When does he abide in us ... and we in him?

Kwai sin doesn't separate us from God ... and this separation didn't affect our fellowship w/ God?

http://www.hawksforchrist.com/images/salvation1.jpg

http://www.hawksforchrist.com/images/salvation2.jpg

In your opinion what or who brings each individual man in communion once again w/ God?

Thanks for your input thus far, KwaiQ.

You said:
Please tell me.... In this separation is the human spirit without "life?"

It seems we're talking past each other here. I never said sin was a place God couldn't go to. I'm stressing that sin's consequence is separation. If sin is present, so is it's consequence unless sin has been dealt with in the eyes of God. You seem to be saying that sin doesn't have to be dealt with in order to have fellowship with God. This is simply incorrect. God is just and his justice must be appeased in order for fellowship. There must be reconciliation. The breach of his word and its consequence of death/separation must be dealt with. If there is no need to deal with sin and its consequence, then there was no need for a savior.

Yes, but more to the point.... How could Cornelius' dead human spirit be quickened to life by the indwelling Spirit of God if he was still dead in his sins? The sin issue must be dealt with before life can return.

This I agree with.

This, I believe, is incorrect and where you have fallen short in your answer to my ultimate question. If the blood was not yet applied then he was still dead in his sins. He could not have been alive in the spirit and still DEAD in his sins. This is directly contradictive. Explain to me how this can be.

That sin compromises fellowship does not "limit God".... it showcases God's holiness and sovereignty. Like I said, the sinner vies for Lordship. If you don't understand how this is please reread my previous post.

That God is omnipresent has not been questioned here. Omnipresence has nothing to do with quickening the dead human spirit to new life. Whether God quickened Cornelius' dead human spirit to new life without first having dealt with the issue of his sin is at question. My ultimate question is how new life can come when the cause of death has not been removed.

Never said it was. Sin is any breach against God's word. It is disobedience.

I think it is better said that "dead" is the condition of the man. Sin is the breach of God's command which brought the condition. Sin brought death.

I think we're getting there :nod

Please address this issue of Cornelius receiving the spirit of life while still being DEAD in his sins. Thanks.

I have to go to work now, but consider this. Adam sinned in the garden of eden, yet God fellowshipped or communed with him after the sin. Saul sinned against God, yet God "fellowshipped" with him on the Damascus road.

I'll try to post more at length later on today. God bless!

God may have interacted, but a relationship which they once had was destroyed. Adam was now dead. He was without Life. He was without God.

His human spirit was in desperate need of being made regenerate of God. The human spirit needed to be born again of God (John 3:6). How can this take place without SIN which brings DEATH being taken care of?

If the relationship can be restored without sin being first removed then there was no need for Calvary.

How could Cornelius have still been dead in his sins if the "Holy" living Spirit of God dwelt in him?

If the relationship between the human spirit and the Spirit of God can be restored without sin being first removed then there was no need for Calvary.

The theological implications of the baptismal sin remission position are enormous.

If we sin as a saint according to your initial response to kwaiQ, we will be separated from the Holy Spirit which is in us. Recognizing this sin is not the same as confessing and repenting of it. Would you call a saint who falls into sin as one that abides in Christ?

We abide in him if we don't sin. What prevents the Spirit from coming and going constantly in a Christian who is struggling with a sin?

Another example might be the churches in the book of Revelation. Why didn't Jesus take the candlestick away and remove his Spirit from the churches with whom he was displeased?

His Spirit guides us and comforts us. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Notice the last part of Titus 3:5 renewing of the Holy Ghost.

this word in the Greek is:
anakainōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better
Part of Speech: noun feminine

God's Holy Spirit guided Cornelius, a repentant man to a saved relationship with God by the Blood of Jesus Christ being applied through his baptism. This man was clean, just as the man delivered from a devil was clean for a season. The "home" of the unclean Spirit was clean. The same could be said of Cornelius. He was clean, yet not delivered. See Mat 12:43-45.

Baptism is required for salvation.
Acts 2:38
Mark 16:16
Matt 28:18
John 3:5
Mat 3:16 Jesus shows us the example

I did not say the believer who sins will be separated from God. Because sin has been dealt with in the heart of the believer, the believer abides in Christ even if he should stumble. On the other hand, sin has not been dealt with in the heart of the unbeliever. The believer is righteous before God because he rests "in Christ," while the unbeliever rests "outside of Christ" on his own inadequate merit and is viewed as being under sin and unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).

The believer perpetually abides in Christ (and the spirit of Christ in him) because he perpetually believes. Like each of us sitting at our computers are now in a constant state of "being" physically alive, believers in Christ are in a constant state of "being" spiritually alive. They are in a constant state of "being" righteous because they are perpetually receiving God's righteousness imputed to them through faith in Christ (Romans 3:21-22). In Christ we are perpetually alive and right before God, therefore perpetually forgiven. By virtue of constant faith in Christ who is our righteousness (1Corinthians 1:30) we remain constantly right before God...... even when we stumble.

Our rightness before God is not dependent on our right actions (Romans 4:4-8) but on God's righteousness. Since our salvation is based fully on a righteousness imputed to us we need not freak out when we stumble and fall. If we should find that we have stumbled we must simply rely on the cross, remember we are crucified with Christ and recognize we live not because of our works but because Christ lives in us by faith (Galatians 2:17-21).

The sins of those who have not believed are still imputed to them, they are still condemned to eternal separation from God and will remain thus until they are no longer under sin by virtue of being "in Christ" (John 3:14-18; Romans 8:1).

I am under the impression it is being suggested by many that Cornelius had the life of Christ living in him while he was yet under sin. I do not see this as being theologically possible.

Hope this helped. God bless.

If Cornelius' "house (heart)" could be cleansed enough for the indwelling of the Spirit of God..... what was the need for Calvary? Again, I think you've degraded the significance of the Cross.

Those who have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them are no longer under condemnation (Romans 8:1-2,9). That a man can be purified by faith and indwelt by the Spirit of God yet remain in a state of condemnation until baptism seems theologically skewed. I'll need you to clarify this one. Maybe it would help if you told me the significance of the cross in your theology.

Thanks

The cross has no significance. The shed blood has a great deal of significance. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

The cross has become an idol to many who call themselves Christian.

The verses that say 'into Christ' are about water baptism. Surely in Rom 6:3 you can see how baptism into his death is water baptism and not Spirit baptism. If we are united with Christ in the likeness of his death it is because we have likewise died to sin when we were baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of our sins. In water baptism our 'old self' or 'the body of sin' is done away with...which is the same as the remission of sins...an actual circumcision made without hands [by the Spirit] in which we are made to be 'freed from sin'.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with {Him} in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be {in the likeness} of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.


Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


How are we made children of God by faith in Christ Jesus? for (because) we have been baptized into Christ.Can you show me where Spirit baptism would be the same as being baptized into Christ or would it not rather be Christ in us the hope of glory? The wording 'into Christ' linked with baptism is water baptism. We are in Christ when we are in the body of Christ. We are brought into that body of Christ or into Christ by the new birth of which water is a part. It is by the Spirit of Christ that we are baptized into one body. The Spirit does a work in us when we go under the water calling on the name of the Lord Jesus. A work of removing the body of sins or remitting our sins....its more than what we commonly call forgiveness.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[fn3] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,



Sorry, Dan, I don't have time to address the rest of your post tonight.

Now, you wouldn't be trying to divert this discussion in an attempt to avoid addressing the theological implications of your position would you?

If a man's heart can be clean enough for the Holy Spirit to indwell it, why is there a need to further remit sins?

If the shed blood of Calvary is for the remission of sins, and sins are remitted in water baptism, why was it necessary to shed the blood of Christ if the Holy Spirit could indwell a man without the need of sin remission?

Why was it necessary to shed the blood of Christ if the spirit of man could be quickened to new life by the indwelling living Spirit of God without sin remission?

You have a huge problem here.

The purpose of Christ's death on the cross is negated if the heart can be made alive without sin remission.

Christianity without the cross?

Yep. And then there is the little problem of forgiveness and remission being the same.

Carry on Adino ....

The direct evidence of the scriptures I have quoted are huge theologically for you and yours. Explain why God considers it necessary for salvation.

Acts 2:38
Mark 16:16
Matt 28:18
John 3:5

Not to mention how do you explain how a holy God cannot live in a vessel with unremitted sin, yet if that soul sin after being filled with the Spirit, God will remain in a that sin-laden vessel until confession and repentance is made and the blood of Jesus Christ washes away the sin. How is the first scenario any different that the second?

I cannot see the difference. Sin is sin. Holy is holy.

There must be another explanation than "Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?" because we know that we all have sinned since being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I believe Adino danced around this issue in his last post in response to what I wrote.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Paul doesn't seem to think of the baptisms as works of righteousness.

The baptism of John was superceded by baptism in Jesus' name. The disciples of John in Ephesus had to be rebaptized in Jesus name.

The efficacy is in the blood which the Spirit applies to our souls. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission. What is the circumcision made without hands? And who performs that circumcision? The Spirit is involved in every aspect of a person coming to God including the new birth of water and Spirit.