Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

[QUOTE=Michael Phelps;574235][QUOTE=Whole Hearted;574224]Dislike is much more accurate, not people but things that are going on. But let it be know there are good people still in and we support their functions and event. We do not support those who are doing the smoke and mirrors stuff.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

[QUOTE=Whole Hearted;574241][QUOTE=Michael Phelps;574235]Again, duly noted. Thanks for clarifying.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

I personally cannot stand fog machines and strobe lights myself during the course of a "normal" service. Granted, I think they may have their uses during specific drama-type events, but DO hate them during regular song services.

As a DJ I never used strobe lights and stopped using fog machines when they started setting off every single fire alarm.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

Randy, that is my thoughts...for drama and special presentations they are ok. Now I would not want them in every service...would get old after while. I think for a play, a skit things like that are exciting for the young people.
Balance would be the key...I personally had rather see lights than politicans on a platform!

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

Please take no offense but I am of the opinion God and politics don´t mix...

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

I see nothing wrong with worshipping God with whisltes.

Don't have to have a suit and tie to be saved or stay saved.

Me personally, I'm ok with cultural dress as long as it is modest and as long as there is a distinction b/n male and female apparel.

The word of God does not change for the world or culture - if the world or a culture wants to get saved and live for God, then THEY change for the word of God.

Who am I to tell the Philippino's that a barong (spelled right?) is an ungodly piece of apparel? I have a barong and have worn it to church here in north america.

However, obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves...

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

having the unique perspective of having been a hard core conservative youth minister, and now being 100% the opposite direction, I can honestly say my view on the showman ship of worship services has not changed one bit.

What is the effect you are going for with the lights and the effects? In my mind, it can only serve one of two purposes.

A: Entertainment value. The lights and the effects are merely there to look pretty and make things feel more "cool". Nothing insidious about wanting to make worship seem more palatable to young people, but this type of plan is inherently doomed to fail because you will never ever ever ever EVER match the entertainment value of what the world has to offer. Once they get a taste of the lights and concert effects of the world, why would they stick with the generic brand they find in the church?

B: Creating hype to simulate genuine moves of the Holy Ghost. This I have a major problem with in both principle and function. To invoke carnal emotion that can be found in any concerts going on around the country and pretend that it is a move of God is disgusting. I do believe that there are some who understand that it is a short cut to the emotional high that they are trying to reach for their conferences and meetings and use the effects to replicate the intense worship atmosphere one would usually expect to find in a traditional worship environment. What a disservice to the kids involved!


Some would argue that there is no difference between the lights and effects and quality music, but I would simply point out that music is a biblical form of worship and belongs in the churches as part of the process. Hype inducing production takes away from the the individual services and it takes away from the long term effect these services can have on the young people who attend them.

I understand why some people would not understand why people such as myself make such a big deal out o it, as it's just lights. I can only ask you to seek out the purpose behind the practice. is it really for spiritual edification, or is it a simple man made tool to manufacture a high emotion environment?

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

[QUOTE=Jeremy;581319]having the unique perspective of having been a hard core conservative youth minister, and now being 100% the opposite direction, I can honestly say my view on the showman ship of worship services has not changed one bit.


Jeremy. A full 100% ??

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

Well, I guess I feel the same about lights. Lol. if 100% is biting heads off bats and drinking their blood, then no, but I have certainly changed a lot from where I was to where I am.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

Really.. you've changed. :tease

Me too. I'm as sweet as sugar. :whistle

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

Gotta love Ozzy Osbourne!

Nothing is wrong with lights, fog and affects. It is all for dramatic affect. Just like screaming ones head off when preaching or getting a box of shout detergent and preaching about "Shout it out!" just to get a response. To me it is all the same. Use it or don't, but don't try and push others down that down use it as if they are rank sinners or something. It is a sad day when something like lights and fog machines are dividing lines. Cause if ones argument is that bars have them, etc. then there is no reason why we need music cause bars have it, no carpet or wood flooring again bars have them. The best is don't have speakers and amp and musical equipment either--bars have those. LOL the lengths people go to call out others as sinners. What a joke!

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

In all respect JT. Calling convictions a joke is not cool. But its your right. I think sometimes it depends on if you were ever in the world or not, as to whether you have, or develop certain convictions (feelings) on things. Flashing lights remind me of haunted houses and the village people (YMCA). A whole lot of people have strong convictions against a light show/fog in a Church service. Those convictions will be preached. I would not call someone who uses these methods "bound for hell". But it is a strong conviction and we will continue to teach and preach, against the appearance of a bar room.
God bless.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

I actually addressed your very argument in the post you did not quote. The reason I see it as being wrong is because you are manufacturing hype. Your argument about using illustrations does not fit. I have been in history class where we split into two and had a paper ball fight to relate to civil war, I have been in math classes where you do small construction projects to show applicable use of a mathematical principle, and I have been in a science class where we shined a laser light on mirrors to display the properties of rays of light. Using visual or interactive lesson aids is not at all the same as the psychological manipulation of teenagers with lights and smoke. At least, not in my opinion. I doubt I could argue anyone who thinks it's cool into seeing my point of view, I just hope I can express my view in such a way to at least make it understandable.

It is not a fear of progression that makes them seem like a bad thing to people like me. It is a feeling of regression, and a sense of degradation. I simply don't feel like visual effects in worship are a step forward. I see it as an attempt to replicate something it can never match (that many came out of), and a weakening of the potential for the moving of the Spirit of God.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.

Again, I do not like flashing lights. I think the argument that it is too much like the "world" (or haunted houses or the Village People) is a red herring which takes attention away from the REAL reason they should not be used: epilepsy. There are MANY people who will go into a seizure at the drop of a hat in the presence of any strobe light, and even lights that flash with ANY rhythm. And perhaps the 2nd biggest reason I have against them is that they are just plain annoying.

When I DJed, I did not use any lights that flashed, or spinning mirrored balls (I DID toy with a fog machine, but it set off too many fire alarms in dance halls). My service was called Tough of Class! and that is exact what I went for. Subdued lighting, high quality sound, shiny black suit and tie on myself, and no raunchy music (like "strokin" or "Don't want no short shrot....", "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails...... you get the idea).

Here is a picture of my set up at a ballroom event.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...SetupSmall.jpg

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

Nice set up.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

Thanks.

As you can see my only lighting was the purple rope light surrounding the stage and two small black lights underneath the table.

(And the system sounded incredible!)

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;581555]I think the whole premise of not doing something because it is too much like something else is always a shaky one to which to develop a doctrine -a conviction perhaps, but not a "church rule". I know your talking specifically about convictions, but then you also mention is being preached, which thrusts it into the category of church rule.




***************************MY REPLY*************************

(and by the way, I used the quote thing, what am I doing wrong because it NEVER seems to make the boxed quote that I see the rest of you coming up with.) ANYWAY.....

You know Randy you are so right...and you are also kind of wrong.


I think its a shame that for Reasons of Biblical understanding that we by and large have not experienced living under the law of Moses at least for a season. It's a real eye opener to understanding the principles of the New Covenant. The Law was a shadow of things to come and not the actual object (s) itself.

But to scrap it as though it has no bearing on the New is ridiculous as the New is typified in the Old and a holistic view of the Word of God gives us a great advantage as opposed to just a one eyed vision ability (when you only see through one eye you lose something very important...DEPTH PERCEPTION)

There is a grossly foreign (to us) concept revealed in the Law that is so beautifully realized in the New Testament, and because most of us the overwhelmingly VAST majority of us have NEVER been exposed to this concept or even heard of it , it colours and distorts our understanding of the principle (s) at work in the New.



It is the concept of being KOSHER. Ask anyone what THAT means and they will tell you that it has something to do with hot dogs or pickles and that is pretty much the extent of most peoples thinking. Ask a few and they will say, oh that has to do with the dietary laws of the Jews ..they don't eat Pork"


But Randy that whole concept is so vital to us today, and it is going right over the head of I would say almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008.

That of course being because almost everybody in the New Testament Church of 2008 is of gentile background.


But the church was ordained to be a BODY of Jews and Gentiles baptized into the same body, bringing BOTH of their positive insights and experiences into a common shared insight into and experience with God. Where are our Jewish Apostolics of today? I would be willing to garauntee you that virtually all of us could count the Jewish Apostolics that WE know on our fingers!

The whole deal of keeping Kosher goes WAY beyond Not eating pork, catfish, or rabbit! Those were the SHADOW of things to come NOT the very thing itself! They really speak to something WAY past ***FOOD****!!!! (Thats why I hate to admit it but when you see these guys going on about the need to go avoid eating catfish and rabbit because it is not Kosher cracks me up, they are SO NOT GETTING GODS POINT! But God love em)

But to stay with MY thought here....The whole system of keeping "KOSHER" is amazing. Basically what Kosher means is that this is something within the perameters set by the word of God and acceptable in light of the word of GOD.

The OPPOSITE... what is usually translated as "UNCLEAN" in the Old Testament is a word TRAIF which means Torn or Ripped.

So you have Kosher...Clean Holy inside the boundaries of the word of God
and Traif ...Ripped, Torn , OUTSIDE the boundaries of the word of God.

And if it was just left there you would have the general Apostolic mind set in a nutshell. No Middle Ground on anything!

But there is a THIRD classification for so many things. In the law something can be NOT KOSHER and yet NOT TRAIF either! That third classification is called PAREVE. Neutral.... neither this OR that.

For instance in the law beef is Kosher, Pork is Traif , but a potato is NEITHER Kosher OR Traif it is just a potato, Pareve, neutral.

And as things even in the food community so to speak keep evolving, new foods discovered and developed it causes the Law Keeping community to keep having to take counsel together on these newly introduced things to determine IN LIGHT OF THE PRINCIPLES DELIVERED TO THEM FROM GOD..is this Kosher or is this Traif or is it PAREVE? Its not just rules made on whim or personal conviction, it goes way beyond that, it is the counsel of EXPERIENCED LEARNED MEN who counsel TOGETHER on these things and reach a judicial decision. The ability to adjudicate in the Apostolic Church is certainly there (The binding and loosing power of adjudication given to the diisciples by Jesus himself). It is simply not used or not used very well at best.

Now that brings us to the whole issue bantered back and forth about here. Does anyone seriously believe that the real issue is LIGHTS? I mean this is not about a debate raging over the pros and cons of conventional traditional light bulbs and the new neon lighting. This is TIED to a whole area of spiritual influence and atmosphere setting power that many EXPERIENCED men of GOD are detecting and whose voice is being marginalized to a large extent by those without that experience who want what they want! Hence the tantrum factor where you see charges of WITCHCRAFT being hurled around by those who dont like any thinking on the subject that differs from their own.

To kind of touch on YOUR comment let me run this by you.


I was minister for several years at a very large predominantly black Apostolic church. We had a serious SERIOUS problem with our young people. It had many many causes BUT the common denominator of THIS problem was THIS:

The two major gangs in the area The Bloods and the Crips had "Colours" The Bloods wore RED the Crips wore BLUE. It was how you marked what gang you gave allegiance to even though you may not actually have joined it.

The young people in the church wanting so hard to be COOL immediately began wearing the colours of the gang that they admired (or feared).

All of a sudden RED Jackets, sweaters, jogging suits and BLUE Jackets Sweaters and jogging suits started becoming the clothing of choice for virtually ALL of our young people.

Bishop was completely at a loss. It certainly was not the colours blue and red that troubled him but what he CORRECTLY saw as the spiritual force in back of them slowly insinuating itself into their lives through the simple wearing of COLOURS. Most of the kids were NOT involved in the gang life at all. (Yet , THAT came later) BUT they were attempting in their immature way to be RELEVANT in their peer group/ community and it was the WRONG kind of relevance.

Bishop after things really got out of hand finally stood up one sunday Morning and laid down the LAW.
" THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY MORE OF THESE COLOURS! NOT IN CHURCH, NOT ON THE STREET! OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ***NOT**** GOING TO BE WALKING AROUND LOOKING LIKE THE BLOODS AND THE CRIPS! NO MORE BLUE JACKETS NO MORE RED JACKETS, THAT'S IT AINT NO MORE COLOURS!"

Now of course even Bishop would have told you there was nothing morally right OR wrong with the colour blue or the colour red, but what it was tied to WAS DEADLY and he did NOT want that spirit slowly wafting in and getting ahold of the young people. Many laughed at him and did not heed his SAGE ADVICE based on the leading of the spirit of God and good old common sense! (' I LOVE BISHOP BUT HE'S OLD AND HE DONT *****UNDERSTAND!*****)

They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

So to say that there is no ablity at various times to stand up and take an issue and define it in terms of the word of God is actually a duty we all must recognize. That is why in the MULTITUDE of counsel there is safety.

Any way this is evidently my newest book. It probably wont be read either . Oh well!

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

[QUOTE=TCSQ;581799]
Thank you TCSQ. Good post.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

I understand the point your making completely, and agree with it for the most part. For instance a pastor banning blue and red from his specific church because of the specific issues you mentioned is understandable (popular gang colors in the neighborhood) and relevant to that church in that situation.
Such would be the case to bring up the concept of flashing lights (which I *hate* by the way) and fog as they occur in a church which may be situated in a section of town heavily populated by bars and night clubs. Perhaps the leadership would decide that they need to take a specific stand against looking too much like all the other businesses which are on the same block.

But..... barring these sort of situations I still stand by my comment about making church policy based on something "looking too much like something else" is a VERY dangerous one and should not be made lightly, if at all. One problem with such rules is that they more often than not don't stop with only one step. Meaning, people being people more often than not keep adding to such rules: I won't do this because it is too much like this WHICH is too much like that! The concept of not doing something because it is too much like something else is a very shaky foundation which at best works for only one generation of "like" and even then in only specific situations like the one mentioned in your post about the colors blue and red.

Now.... What would happen if a church in an area of the country with little to no gang activity suddenly banned the colors red and blue because of what they read in your post? "If it is relevant for THAT pastor then surely it is relevant to ME!"?

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

Legalism is witchcraft. How would one explain the strong terms Paul used in Galatians 3? Legalism is a spell. Paul builds a great case against subjective standards. Then hammers the point home when asking who has bewitched you. IF one doesn't believe legalism is witchcraft. Either they haven't taken studied it out, or they have friends whom they don't want to offend.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;582587]I understand the point your making completely, and agree with it for the most part. For instance a pastor banning blue and red from his specific church because of the specific issues you mentioned is understandable (popular gang colors in the neighborhood) and relevant to that church in that situation.


*****************************************MY REPLY********************************************* **********

(See it did it again! What on earth am I doing wrong? I hit the quote deal, I bring it up, and then when I go to reply there is no boxed in quote so I have to make my own line of distinction, oh well bear with me)

Such would be the case to bring up the concept of flashing lights (which I *hate* by the way) and fog as they occur in a church which may be situated in a section of town heavily populated by bars and night clubs. Perhaps the leadership would decide that they need to take a specific stand against looking too much like all the other businesses which are on the same block.

Exactly! I think this is the real crux of the matter, Apostolics have like most denominations bought into the ORGANIZATION mentality that takes the judgement and decision making OUT of the hands of the local assembly and into the Organizational realm, thus robbing the local assemblies SHEPHERDS or Government of a final say in the matter. What the church in Cucamonga decides to do on this issue is their own free decision, wether or not to participate in that with the sheep I am responsible for is MINE. But when these things intrude into venues that are COMMONLY shared such as youth meetings and district meetings and national meetings, then this DOES become an issue as is evident by the growing number of pastors who refuse to allow the sheep that THEY must answer for to come under what they perceive to be an incrementally encroaching spiritually negative trend. They certainly are with in their right to do so and certainly within their responsibility to do so as well.

I agree with you about the basis for making spiritual decisions by the way. But it seems to me upon a great deal of reflection that the majority of members of the body don''t tend (even in James the apostles day) to come from the upper economic classes privileged to have extensive educations and vocabularies that allow them to express themselves as eloquently as they might. So the expressions of resistance take on a very common (and I dont mean that insultingly its just the reality) tone and can be expressed as basically NO WAY or "We Aint gonna have none of that round here!" rather than a lengthy and well delivered reasoning why thus and such is contrary to the way that the Lord is bringing that assembly.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

[QUOTE=RandyWayne;582587]

But..... barring these sort of situations I still stand by my comment about making church policy based on something "looking too much like something else" is a VERY dangerous one and should not be made lightly, if at all. One problem with such rules is that they more often than not don't stop with only one step. Meaning, people being people more often than not keep adding to such rules:


************************I AGREE**********************



RIGHT ON THE HEAD MAN! RIGHT ON THE HEAD!!!!! I think that you are so close to something there Brother. One of the reasons for this is because the last days church has NOT attempted (by and large) to lose the gentile I'M THE KING LET IT RING!" type of church government.

What we need is a further restoration of the APOSTOLIC pattern of church government AND ministry the TWO five Fold Ministries that are virtually NOT EXISTENT in our day, (either one!) just that nature of the uncircumsized gentile "who's in charge and who gets the money?" thinking.

A revelation of the EKKLESIA where EVERY CITIZEN HAS A VOICE.

We need that so badly , I am talking to several other preachers that are often mentioned on this and other forums, and there is an understanding of just exactly HOW MUCH MORE WE HAVE TO GROW in things that is most encouraging! Not just disparaging everything 'cause it aint the way we been a doin it fer the last hunderd yars!" and not just jumping on every ridiculous boat that comes sailing by in an attempt to be "relevant" but an almost crushing in magnitude insight and desire to go OVER Jordan INTO the promised land and get the heck out of this wilderness that we have been circling around in for such a long LONG time!


That is why when you hear about churches wanting to be ""Relevant" at first your heart leaps ! And then you check it out and such a let down! It has nothing to do with stepping UP into MORE of GOD or GODLINESS but rather a grunge look, or a black and white yeah man type look, or a mosh pit type atmosphere and your GUT reaction is ...THESE GUYS ARE TAKING US IN THE *****OTHER**** DIRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!

Its a time of flux and change and some of it is wonderful some of it is dreadful, and it is a time that calls for great wisdom and the kind that comes from above and is of GOD rather than the kind that is sensual and of MAN.



*************************Then You Sagely Add***********


I won't do this because it is too much like this WHICH is too much like that! The concept of not doing something because it is too much like something else is a very shaky foundation which at best works for only one generation of "like" and even then in only specific situations like the one mentioned in your post about the colors blue and red.


**********************************I AGREE****************

Precisely! Which is why you NEED a church that is governed the BIBLE way, where there is a constantly growing and FLEXIBLE government of Bishops Elders Deacons Administrations and Helps, governing the assembly rather than the current parasitical denominational system of offices and positions and politicking! You need that (The LOCAL church government) as well as the counsel of the CITIZENS of that local ekklesia. When you dont allow the citizens a voice then you reduce them from citizens to subjects and start dictating TO them and you inadvertently change your self from a SERVANT of the ekklesia to holding LORDSHIP over it. You also change them from being a company of sons of God to serfs on your land.



***********YOU CONCLUDE WISELY***************************
Now.... What would happen if a church in an area of the country with little to no gang activity suddenly banned the colors red and blue because of what they read in your post? "If it is relevant for THAT pastor then surely it is relevant to ME!"?



**************************I Concur*********************

It would be a ridiculous position to take wouldn't it, unless of course there was a perceived THREAT to that OPENING a door that that ministry does not WANT opened.

I do know that one of the more poetic types in the Old testament about the role of the ministry is that of "Watchman On the Wall."

And the watchman on the wall has a PERSPECTIVE that others simply dont!

(I live in a city near the Alps. It is a major city that goes back to the days of the Caesars. There is a tower in our city that is a tower not for defense, but built to give PERSPECTIVE of another tower that is over one hundred miles away in the Alps. The people on the ground or out in their fields cant see that tower in the alps to do so you have to climb to the top of the tower in our city. The purpose of those two towers is this. The Alps form a natural barrierr to invading armies. And yet that barrier has been breached before.

SOOOOOO They have these two towers, one to signal to the other in case an invading army is on the way, giving the city I live in time to warn the citizenry, gather them in and bar the gates to keep the enemy at bay.

Sometimes I see the things like YOU mention about the two churches and different natures of the community they serve, and yet can not forget that as a WATCHMAN on the wall I must err on the side of caution, and MUST watch the signals from other assemblies and take into geunine consideration their warnings and signals that an invading army is on the way as well as positions.


I may choose to regard it and then say, well we will keep on eye on it (kind of like a distantly developing hurricane) but as for right now we will not close the gates. I may decide they are over reacting and kind of put things on a back burner in that area. I may decide they are nuts and choose to just plain disregard it.


But again I am working to build an assembly where the APOSTOLIC form of church government is evolving and so we make such decisions after praying, studying the matter and then bringing it to the citizens NOT in a service, not handing them a fete accompli from the pulpit, but holding a meeting of the citizenry where the men and women who feel to give their input are allowed to voice their concerns and opinions , and then just kind of hammer it out and invite the wisdom of God to manifest it self like it did in the ekklesia meetings in the Book of Acts.


That so much of this is about things affecting the most IMPRESSIONABLE segment of Gods church, its YOUNG is rather enlightening to me as to what spirit is really in back of a lot of this. The devil wants our kids and it is also interesting how that voices who are NOT responsible for their salvation seem to really resent the spiritual parenting that many ministers of God desire to give the young people that they have watched grow in God in their assemblies for many many years.

Again, who cares about fog and lights, they certainly would be effective in some venues and not in others, they are merely a symptom of a much greater issue, the real issue I feel is the neutered feeling that a lot of men of God are feeling and are unable to articulate but is kind of like this...

Imagine that YOU trust me to watch YOUR kids for the evening why you and your wife go out for dinner and a Play. OR even better, the two of you go away for the weekend and leave me to watch your kids.

You tell me before you go that you dont want your kids drinking soft drinks and eating junk food. You tell me that you and your wife feel VERY strongly about this saying those kids have NEVER eaten that garbage and we dont want them to while we are gone.

I hear that, but once the door slams I say "Oh what a fuddy duddy! Those kids only are young once! He's living in a fantasy if he thinks those kids are going to be hurt because they are allowed to eat pizza and drink coke like OTHER kids. Well I AM IN CHARGE NOW and I am going to completely flaunt his concerns and not only am I going to LET them eat whatever they want but I AM GOING TO TAKE THEM OUT TO MACDONALDS MYSELF!!!!!"

Imagine how you would feel when you return, find out what has happened and then find your self DISCUSSED ON A INTERNET FORUM WITH PEOPLE THINKING THAT YOU REPRESENT A DICTATORIAL FORM OF PARENTING AND IT BORDERS ON WITCHCRAFT!

Can you see how frustrated , enraged and powerless you might feel in the face of a barrage of posts against your right as a parent to set the boundaries for YOUR children wether they are in your immediate care or not.

I think that is much of what is in back of this , that feeling of being marginalized and emascualted for want of a better word , on the organizational level, with men who are NOT responsible to pastor those kids konwingly (!) exposing them to things and spirits that they KNOW many pastors who ARE responsible for them are NOT comfortable with.

I would say it is THAT arrogance that is the REAL cause of much of this whole back and forth, and again reflects the need for local assemblies to dramatically rethink their government and what they are part of on a national/ international level.


Well there ya go

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

they did not pay for their rebellion against his control, they paid because of the fact they chose to wear gang colors in an area that was infested with two of the most violent street gangs in America. That's the bottom line.

Something else to consider is this. They may have even paid for the totalitarian preaching style of your Bishop. How much more sense would it have made for him to simply relate news articles about innocent victims becoming the targets of gang violence because of the something as trivial as the color of a jacket or hat. Appealing to their logic instead of attempting to overrun their natural sense of free will was not really all that wise.

This is one of my big problems with the way Apostolic ministry works. We believe in a great God who designed us in his image, and from the very beginning of man offered and encouraged free will. This is one of the reasons we can have such a deep relationship with him, because we are not forced to serve him, but simply given the chance to respond to that small still voice, that knock at our hearts door. How many times have I heard it said God is a gentleman and does not force anything on us? More fingers and toes than I have, that's for sure.

Yet we see a micro managing ministry that lays out every detail of what a Christians life should be from what they can wear, how they can wear what they wear, what colors what they wear can be, the precise length of a mans hair, where people can go on dates, the exact way a date should go (double, one shaporone, un-even males and females, where they can happen, how late they can go, how often they should occur, how long one should wait from one relationship to the next, etc.), the exact guidelines for church appearance, (open toed shoes, pantie hoes, hair up, hair down, mens hair parted, no colored shirts, no sport coats, no jeans, must wear a tie,) no make up, no jewelry, no sports, no this no that blah blah blah.

I could literally go on writing double what I wrote, but you get the drift. These things being made mandatory ordinances of the church completely defy both the free will God gave us to serve him, AND the function of the Holy Ghost. You foster and welcome an environment for rebellion with a "because I said so" dogmatic style of leadership. Clearly the problem was the ADMIRATION OF THE GANGS! NOT the manner in which it manifested itself. It seems so very typical for our churches to address the outward manifestation of problems of the heart as if that is the solution.

Sorry that this seemed a bit...negative towards your Bishop, I don't mean it to be. I am just trying to objectively analyze the situation. I assure you no personal offense was intended. i know sometimes criticism can seem like attack when it comes to someones man of god, so I wanted to clarify that tearing down the man is not my intention, just a criticism the general way in which our ministry deals with issues like this.

And uhhhm. Yeah. Lights...they're still no good.

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

[QUOTE=Jeremy;583106]
They paid for it dearly in the long run even members of his own immediate family who rebelled against that kind of "control" and ended up seeing their own children shot to death in broad daylight.

they did not pay for their rebellion against his control, they paid because of the fact they chose to wear gang colors in an area that was infested with two of the most violent street gangs in America. That's the bottom line.


****************I reply*******************************

I wish we were talking because sometimes I dont convey things very well over the net. I put "Control" in quotes because that was the RESPONSE or the way that preaching was viewed by some of the parents who rejected Bishops absolutely Biblical responsiblitly to set some lines for the sheep he was charged with feeding and KEEPING.


You are absolutely right they paid with their lives because of their own foolish choices but not only that, they MADE that choice directly in the face of a man who had pastored them, their parents and their GRANDPARENTS for over forty years, had loved them, prayed for them, wept over them, preached to them, baptized them , prayed them through to the life in Jesus Christ, taught them, agonized for them, rejoiced with them, and had basically invested his entire life in shepherding them.

I was merely establishing that the FOOLISHNESS of so cavalierly rejecting his ministerial authority as well as the EXCUSELESS REBELLION of the parents who 1.) Heard Bishops charge...2.) Grumbled about it and 3.) Said "Honey don't you worry, Bishop don't mean it, you do what you want to do, he's old, he don't understand, he don't have the right to tell you how to live your life..." was a very large part of why they found themselves OUTSIDE the ark of safety and attending funerals instead of graduations. and weddings ......


**************You Continue***************************

Something else to consider is this. They may have even paid for the totalitarian preaching style of your Bishop.

***************I reply******************************

I am laughing here, not at YOU but, OH BOY you should have been there! Totalitarian was about as far away from the way it was as could POSSIBLY be! It was incredible! Absolutely incredible.The phrase "In one ear and out the other" doesnt even BEGIN to describe it!



********************YOU CONTINUE******************
How much more sense would it have made for him to simply relate news articles about innocent victims becoming the targets of gang violence because of the something as trivial as the color of a jacket or hat. Appealing to their logic instead of attempting to overrun their natural sense of free will was not really all that wise.


**********************I REPLY***************************

You are not from the inner city are you? What do YOU think would speak louder to you ...an article in a newspaper about someone who was killed because they were wearing the "Wrong colours" OR seeing them gunned down in cold blood right on your front doorstep!? You would THINK that THAT would inform their decisions but INCREDIBLY ENOUGH NOT SO!

********************YOU CONTINUE**********************

This is one of my big problems with the way Apostolic ministry works. We believe in a great God who designed us in his image, and from the very beginning of man offered and encouraged free will. This is one of the reasons we can have such a deep relationship with him, because we are not forced to serve him, but simply given the chance to respond to that small still voice, that knock at our hearts door. How many times have I heard it said God is a gentleman and does not force anything on us? More fingers and toes than I have, that's for sure.

Yet we see a micro managing ministry that lays out every detail of what a Christians life should be from what they can wear, how they can wear what they wear, what colors what they wear can be, the precise length of a mans hair, where people can go on dates, the exact way a date should go (double, one shaporone, un-even males and females, where they can happen, how late they can go, how often they should occur, how long one should wait from one relationship to the next, etc.), the exact guidelines for church appearance, (open toed shoes, pantie hoes, hair up, hair down, mens hair parted, no colored shirts, no sport coats, no jeans, must wear a tie,) no make up, no jewelry, no sports, no this no that blah blah blah.

I could literally go on writing double what I wrote, but you get the drift. These things being made mandatory ordinances of the church completely defy both the free will God gave us to serve him, AND the function of the Holy Ghost. You foster and welcome an environment for rebellion with a "because I said so" dogmatic style of leadership.



**********HOW CAN I ARGUE WITH THAT????********************


Read my other post to Randy. I am so much in agreement with you about that BUT here is the dilemna we face, and it is a HORRIBLY FRUSTRATING dilemna at that!

When the people of God came OUT of Egypt, they were intended to continue going right INTO the place that God wanted to bring them.

BUT they had been shaped in Egypt to be SLAVES, and the overwhelming vast majority of those people NEVER LOST THAT MINDSET. Sad but true, they simply WERE NOT ABLE TO ENTER INTO THE LAND OF PROMISE.
And so They wandered around and around and around and around and around decade after decade after decade after decade.

Think how frustrating that must have been to the few with the Promised Land mindset of FREE MEN who were compelled to wander aimlessly with them year after year after...well you know.

But God loved those people, they were HIS people slave mentality and all!

So he patiently did not abandon them or overthrow them in the wilderness, but led them and fed them and clothed them for all those decades until they DIED OUT in the wilderness and a NEW GENERATION who had never been slaves in Egypt came forth and THEY went IN to the land their parents SHOULD have had.

So much of what we have now is so dear to God people wise, but the sad reality is they dont always think so good! A great many of them still see themselves as slaves, trying desperately to earn their masters love by cranking out as many bricks and works as they can. They are STILL slaves only now instead of being slaves to Pharaoh they see themselves as slaves with a new slave driver, God himself. Their whole relationship with God can often be seen as that of a slave to his master.

I long to see the day that the realization rises upon the heart of the MAJORITY of Gods people that NOW they are the SONS of God! And start to walk in that maturity and base their decisions on that and the word rather than having to have some school master of a tyrant standing over them with the cane to beat them into submission. You are so so so so so so right!

But did you ever read "The Voyage Of the Dawn Treader" by C.S. Lewis?
Do you remember the Monopods and how they were so foolish. Yet the man who had charge over them ruled them, but the way they required to BE ruled.
Like countries get the kind of leadership THEY deserve so congregations get the kind of leadership they deserve.

Just in closing this deal, every time Bishop would get up there and be preaching his heart out, and they would be yelling "Amen Bishop!!!"
I would sit there biting the inside of my mouth because **I*** knew (as did Bishop) its in one ear and out the other and they gonna go right out and do exactly as they please when its all said and done!

****************you continue**************************
Clearly the problem was the ADMIRATION OF THE GANGS! NOT the manner in which it manifested itself. It seems so very typical for our churches to address the outward manifestation of problems of the heart as if that is the solution.


***I INTERJECT*****

I agree but the complexities of the whole situation make it a little more intricate than that but you are basically right

Re: PEAK first WPF Youth Conference
 

I wish we were talking because sometimes I dont convey things very well over the net.

I can relate, hence the long clarification at the end of my first post.




You are absolutely right they paid with their lives because of their own foolish choices but not only that, they MADE that choice directly in the face of a man who had pastored them, their parents and their GRANDPARENTS for over forty years, had loved them, prayed for them, wept over them, preached to them, baptized them , prayed them through to the life in Jesus Christ, taught them, agonized for them, rejoiced with them, and had basically invested his entire life in shepherding them.

God has so much more invested in us, yet he still has never tried to force anything on us.



I am laughing here, not at YOU but, OH BOY you should have been there! Totalitarian was about as far away from the way it was as could POSSIBLY be!

I was basing it off of

"THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY MORE OF THESE COLOURS! NOT IN CHURCH, NOT ON THE STREET! OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ***NOT**** GOING TO BE WALKING AROUND LOOKING LIKE THE BLOODS AND THE CRIPS! NO MORE BLUE JACKETS NO MORE RED JACKETS, THAT'S IT AINT NO MORE COLOURS!"

That does not leave to much room for choice does it? maybe totalitarian may not be exactly the right term, but it is total control, which was the point I was making.




You are not from the inner city are you? What do YOU think would speak louder to you ...an article in a newspaper about someone who was killed because they were wearing the "Wrong colours" OR seeing them gunned down in cold blood right on your front doorstep!? You would THINK that THAT would inform their decisions but INCREDIBLY ENOUGH NOT SO!

I agree. if they saw it happen, and still continued on, neither method is likely to be effective, but if you are going to spend the time trying to appeal to them, logical common sense talks will get much farther than "because I said so" lectures. You have to realize that they are intentionally making bad choices in light of overwhelming evidence that it is dangerous. Yelling at kids who are already clearly bucking society and trying to be counter culture seems like the absolute worst way to handle them.




Like countries get the kind of leadership THEY deserve so congregations get the kind of leadership they deserve.

Are you suggesting that people who have been downtrodden longer than this country has existed and suffer under tyrannical, oppressive and racist regimes deserve it? Do abused children deserve it? Abused children? I know you are not really saying this, but your parallel is horrible. It is the responsibility of a conscientious church leader to teach and guide not to rule and dominate.

The power of the Pulpit can often be used as a shortcut, but when people start going through real issues of faith, rebellion, questioning, or doubt, that short cut flies out the window, and the attempted use of some ultimate authority clause is only going to be met with contempt.

In all honesty, it sounds like these kids knew full well what they were doing and chose to continue on in that manner anyway. I highly doubt anything could have made them quit.

Glad to know we agree on the overall principle of the matter though, and thanks for the interesting conversation without getting offended or making it personal. I hope that at this point some people in your local ministry have reached out to the community to learn some counseling methods for kids who are romanticized by the gang life.

I don't think it would be at all inappropriate to get these kids help outside of the church even. There are people who dedicate their lives to understanding the appeal and draw of gangs to kids, and may be able to do a good job of pulling them out, especially if they are not where they need to be spiritually and this subject to the power of the influence of the Spirit.

Take care friend. Sounds like you have a great community to evangelize and some kids who very much need to hear that there is a real Jesus who loves and cares for them.