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CalledOut238 09-08-2018 06:59 PM

Hierarchies are for the World and not the Church
 
We know that our Heavenly Father guides the hands of all the nations. And that we as his children are to work with all mankind to live our lives in peace.

Daniel 2:21 (KJV) And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.

When our Messiah; the only wise King, established the apostles he warned them not to seek position above one another. That each would be blessed with gifts and skillsets for the benefit of the whole body of Christ. That there shouldn’t be a desire among the saints to rule over each other or to try and attain the highest positions in an organization.

Matthew 20:25 (KJV)But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

When studying scriptures one needs to consider; King’s language, in how scriptures can be manipulated by those desiring to rule. The word government: or governments, can only be found in scriptures only five times. These scriptures are Isaiah 9: 6 &7, Isaiah 22:21, 2 Peter 2:10 and 1 Corinthians 12:28. When considering the date of the term government origin we find that scholars added the word “government” as an alternative. The online etymology dictionary defines government as:

government (n.) late 14c., "act of governing or ruling;" 1550s, "system by which a thing is governed" (especially a state), from Old French governement "control, direction, administration" (Modern French gouvernement), from governer "to govern" (see govern). Meaning "governing power" in a given place is from 1702.

http://www.etymonline.com/word/gover...online_v_29945

When looking at the Hebrew and Greek definitions in each scripture verse we find some variations in what a modern day reader may perceive the meaning of government to be.

Isaiah 9: 6 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Strong's H4951: misrâh; rule, dominion, empire, government. The Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon defines this as dominion that is derived from rule. The Greek Interlinear Scripture analyzer defines it as, “the chieftainship.”

Isaiah 22:21 (KJV) And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

Strong's H4475: memshâlâh; rule, dominion, realm. The Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon defines this as dominion or rule. Greek Interlinear Scripture analyzer defines it as, “and rule of you”

Contextually these Hebrew words are being used as absolute rule or sovereign authority. There really is no inference to a hierarchal order that we attribute to the term government.

2 Peter 2:10 (KJV) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Strong's G2963: kyriótēs; dominion, power, lordship. The Greek Interlinear Scripture analyzer defines it as, “Of masterdom, lordship.”

1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Strong's G2941: kybérnēsisa; governing, government. From kubernao (of Latin origin, to steer) The Greek Interlinear Scripture analyzer defines it as, “supports”

Putting these usages of these Greek have two different meanings. 2 Peter 2:10 we see it referring to dominion or rule and is the closet application to the term government as we know today. But it is a very broad usage pertaining to the expected conduct of varying authorities. Yes; it could mean government, but it could also mean the expected conduct of the workplace as well. The usage in Corinthians has been taught incorrectly to justify church government in most denominations. But understanding the correct connotation of the usage in this passage is expressing the duty of the elders to guide or steer the congregations in the path of righteousness. It has nothing to do with ruling over or any hierarchal order.

What we are seeing here is the biases of the Bible translators who inserted the word government into the scriptures. There is only one who is worthy to be called Lord and to rule over all mankind. He has given us the spiritual and moral guidance for each of us to contribute to the progression of the Kingdom. The scriptures have been clear in that there should multiple elders in each congregation with their requirements clearly outlined. Elders and ministry’s role are to build up and support the saints to attain perfection in the spirit. This is how the Body of Christ differs from religions and governments of the world.

1 Corinthians 12:11 (KJV) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Selah

Evang.Benincasa 09-08-2018 07:07 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
Does the UPCI church you attend have a pastor or collegial leadership?

Esaias 09-08-2018 08:12 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

What is the significance of the terms "first", "secondarily", "thirdly", "after that", and "then" in the above verse?

Tithesmeister 09-08-2018 09:30 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1548672)
1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

What is the significance of the terms "first", "secondarily", "thirdly", "after that", and "then" in the above verse?

These verses precede the verse you referenced. I believe they shed light on the conversation.

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

If the pastor is receiving less honor, if he is considered less comely and he is not well regarded, perhaps we should bestow on him more honor. If not, then perhaps we should look to the custodian or the grass mower. That is clearly what this passage is saying.

Don’t you agree Esaias?

If not, explain what these verses are really saying.

Evang.Benincasa 09-08-2018 10:11 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1548690)
These verses precede the verse you referenced. I believe they shed light on the conversation.

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

If the pastor is receiving less honor, if he is considered less comely and he is not well regarded, perhaps we should bestow on him more honor. If not, then perhaps we should look to the custodian or the grass mower. That is clearly what this passage is saying.

Don’t you agree Esaias?

If not, explain what these verses are really saying.


The elders are the feet of the body, the head is Christ.

Tithesmeister 09-08-2018 10:19 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1548698)
The elders are the feet of the body, the head is Christ.

I don’t believe I’ve ever heard that. (About the elders being the feet.) I have certainly heard that Christ is the head of the body (and every man).

Esaias 09-08-2018 10:21 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1548690)
These verses precede the verse you referenced. I believe they shed light on the conversation.

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

If the pastor is receiving less honor, if he is considered less comely and he is not well regarded, perhaps we should bestow on him more honor. If not, then perhaps we should look to the custodian or the grass mower. That is clearly what this passage is saying.

Don’t you agree Esaias?

If not, explain what these verses are really saying.

I'm not understanding what you are saying, in reference to Christ setting various persons/giftings in the church in a particular order.

Evang.Benincasa 09-08-2018 10:30 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1548701)
I don’t believe I’ve ever heard that. (About the elders being the feet.) I have certainly heard that Christ is the head of the body (and every man).

Isaiah 52:7, Nahum 1:15, Romans 10:15, and Ephesians 6:15

Tithesmeister 09-08-2018 10:31 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1548702)
I'm not understanding what you are saying, in reference to Christ setting various persons/giftings in the church in a particular order.

I am responding to the premise in the OP in regards to there being (or not) hierarchies in the church. Whether or not the persons or gifts are merely a listing, or if they are gifts that are given to the church in an order of importance, these scriptures make it clear that the persons are not to be held in higher esteem than perhaps the praying widow.

Esaias 09-08-2018 10:33 PM

Re: Hierarchies are for the World and not the Chur
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1548708)
I am responding to the premise in the OP in regards to there being (or not) hierarchies in the church. Whether or not the persons or gifts are merely a listing, or if they are gifts that are given to the church in an order of importance, these scriptures make it clear that the persons are not to be held in higher esteem than perhaps the praying widow.

Well, certainly, we are commanded to esteem one another better than ourselves:

Php_2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

But we are also to "esteem very highly" those who labour in the Word:

1Th 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.


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