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-   -   Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=54605)

Steven Avery 12-16-2021 04:00 AM

Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

For now, try to avoid Greek stuff, and try to read it without doctrinal glasses, and don't run to commentaries.

Later, I can give possibilities, but I would like your feedback without planting any ideas :) .

Thanks!

Steven

Tithesmeister 12-16-2021 05:11 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606788)
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

For now, try to avoid Greek stuff, and try to read it without doctrinal glasses, and don't run to commentaries.

Later, I can give possibilities, but I would like your feedback without planting any ideas :) .

Thanks!

Steven

Paul is referring to the Israelites. Not Gentiles by nature who are spiritual Jews but those who are Jews according to the flesh (biological descendants of Abraham). Also they are nonbelievers which makes Paul grieve for them.

Steven Avery 12-17-2021 03:22 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1606793)
Paul is referring to the Israelites. Not Gentiles by nature who are spiritual Jews but those who are Jews according to the flesh (biological descendants of Abraham). Also they are nonbelievers which makes Paul grieve for them.

Thanks!

This does not clarify:

“God blessed foe ever.”

mizpeh 12-17-2021 06:06 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606788)
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

I understand it as Paul blessing Christ, the God that came to save us by He himself becoming like us.

Tithesmeister 12-17-2021 07:02 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606798)
Thanks!

This does not clarify:

“God blessed foe ever.”

I’m sorry. I missed that. It seems to be that Jesus is blessed by God forever.

Steven Avery 12-20-2021 04:42 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 1606805)
I understand it as Paul blessing Christ, the God that came to save us by He himself becoming like us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1606806)
It seems to be that Jesus is blessed by God forever.

Thank you Mizpeh and Tithesmeister.

Two radically different interpretations,

votivesoul 12-21-2021 03:29 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606788)
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

For now, try to avoid Greek stuff, and try to read it without doctrinal glasses, and don't run to commentaries.

Later, I can give possibilities, but I would like your feedback without planting any ideas :) .

Thanks!

Steven

The AV seems to take a tentative, even conservative approach to a most difficult to translate verse. As it reads, it suggests a leaning toward being a doxology to God. But it is ambiguous, and I think, left so intentionally, so that other interpretations are available, that is, they were not trying to nail down any, one, definitive approach for all time, but allowed the difficulty of the text to show through their translation, without being dogmatic about it.

I would call it a noble act of humility on their part.

And as such, I think they did a good job.

Because honestly, most translators fall into one of two camps:

1.) A doxology to God
2.) Christ is here called "God over all".

Very little middle ground from whatever side.

But I think what the AV translators have done is admirable in the sense that it actually allows for both interpretations at the same time. It is therefore the most versatile translation possible. It holds both positions in tension, but not in conflict.

And this way, I think, is correct, because both views are the truth. They are not pitted against each other. There is no reason to take sides. Romans 9:5 is both a doxology to God and a statement affirming the Divinity of the Christ.

To translate it differently, that is, to make it read one way or the other, as opposed to both (like some of the more modern English versions do, e.g. NIV, ESV, or RSV) causes one aspect or the other to entirely disappear, which is a mistake.

Pressing-On 12-21-2021 08:34 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1606846)
The AV seems to take a tentative, even conservative approach to a most difficult to translate verse. As it reads, it suggests a leaning toward being a doxology to God. But it is ambiguous, and I think, left so intentionally, so that other interpretations are available, that is, they were not trying to nail down any, one, definitive approach for all time, but allowed the difficulty of the text to show through their translation, without being dogmatic about it.

I would call it a noble act of humility on their part.

And as such, I think they did a good job.

Because honestly, most translators fall into one of two camps:

1.) A doxology to God
2.) Christ is here called "God over all".

Very little middle ground from whatever side.

But I think what the AV translators have done is admirable in the sense that it actually allows for both interpretations at the same time. It is therefore the most versatile translation possible. It holds both positions in tension, but not in conflict.

And this way, I think, is correct, because both views are the truth. They are not pitted against each other. There is no reason to take sides. Romans 9:5 is both a doxology to God and a statement affirming the Divinity of the Christ.

To translate it differently, that is, to make it read one way or the other, as opposed to both (like some of the more modern English versions do, e.g. NIV, ESV, or RSV) causes one aspect or the other to entirely disappear, which is a mistake.

That was a nice little sneaky thing you did, Votive. How intelligent your post reads! Bravo!

However, the truth is, Deut. 6:4 is everything and the ONLY thing, and it covers the entire Old and New Testament.

Regardless of whatever commentary you received your thoughts from, the passage is simply saying, God is manifest in the flesh - He is over ALL.

…”as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.”

There are no two views. It is not a doxology. The passage is explaining WHO God is. There is nothing else going on.

Steven Avery 12-22-2021 09:10 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1606856)

Regardless of whatever commentary you received your thoughts from, the passage is simply saying, God is manifest in the flesh - He is over ALL.

…”as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.”

Definitely Christ is over all (although not over God the Father.)

What does "God blessed for ever" mean?
Is Christ blessed by God.
Is God blessed by Paul, or creation?
And if God is blessed, why would that mean Christ is God?

Steven Avery 12-24-2021 11:48 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

a) God (be) blessed for ever. (by creation, his people, Paul)

b) (Christ is) God, (who is) blessed for ever.

c) God blessed (is Christ) for ever.

d) God blessed (are the Israelites, through Christ) for ever


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