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Esaias 12-27-2021 08:49 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606788)
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

For now, try to avoid Greek stuff, and try to read it without doctrinal glasses, and don't run to commentaries.

Later, I can give possibilities, but I would like your feedback without planting any ideas :) .

Thanks!

Steven

It is a doxology: Christ is over all, God, blessed forever.

Pressing-On 12-28-2021 08:43 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Paul opens chapter 9 with a solemn oath:

Romans 9:1 “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,…”

He ends the chapter with an equally solemn oath:

Romans 9:5 “Amen”

So, what was he trying to convey?

Romans 9:4 “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;”

1. Adoption pertains to Israel - “Thus says the Lord: ‘Israel is My son, My firstborn’” (Exodus 4:22)
2. Glory pertains to Israel - Exodus 16:10; 24:17; 40:34; I Kings 8:11.)
3. Covenants pertain to Israel. (8, although number 4. may indicate Paul considers Law of Moses as separate.)
4. Giving of the law pertains to Israel.
5. Service of God pertains to Israel - tabernacle and temple worship.
6. Promises pertain to Israel - many promises, but especially the Messiah.

Romans 9:5 “Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”

The blessings were included toward Israel, as a nation, because of their respected fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their final blessing, as a nation, would be their Messiah who received his humanity from them.

He is, therefore, the supreme “over all”, eternally blessed God.

He clarified in these two passages that he was deeply concerned and loved the nation Israel. And while he has to tell them that Moses’ law is over and cannot save them, it doesn’t mean that he and God are not still concerned for the whole nation.

That is why I agree with JFB - “we have here no doxology at all, but a naked statement of fact, that while Christ is "of" the Israelitish nation "as concerning the flesh," He is, in another respect, "God over all, blessed for ever."

Amen!

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 12:48 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1607080)
Paul opens chapter 9 with a solemn oath:

Romans 9:1 “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,…”

He ends the chapter with an equally solemn oath:

Romans 9:5 “Amen”

So, what was he trying to convey?

Romans 9:4 “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;”

1. Adoption pertains to Israel - “Thus says the Lord: ‘Israel is My son, My firstborn’” (Exodus 4:22)
2. Glory pertains to Israel - Exodus 16:10; 24:17; 40:34; I Kings 8:11.)
3. Covenants pertain to Israel. (8, although number 4. may indicate Paul considers Law of Moses as separate.)
4. Giving of the law pertains to Israel.
5. Service of God pertains to Israel - tabernacle and temple worship.
6. Promises pertain to Israel - many promises, but especially the Messiah.

Romans 9:5 “Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”

The blessings were included toward Israel, as a nation, because of their respected fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their final blessing, as a nation, would be their Messiah who received his humanity from them.

He is, therefore, the supreme “over all”, eternally blessed God.

He clarified in these two passages that he was deeply concerned and loved the nation Israel. And while he has to tell them that Moses’ law is over and cannot save them, it doesn’t mean that he and God are not still concerned for the whole nation.

That is why I agree with JFB - “we have here no doxology at all, but a naked statement of fact, that while Christ is "of" the Israelitish nation "as concerning the flesh," He is, in another respect, "God over all, blessed for ever."

Amen!

It seems to me that you are saying that there should be a comma after God and before blessed. Is that your opinion?

Pressing-On 12-28-2021 03:00 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607090)
It seems to me that you are saying that there should be a comma after God and before blessed. Is that your opinion?

I am saying that the context of the passage is that God is still on the side of national Israel, and their Messiah has come, through their lineage. Paul’s work in Romans was to grab Israel and to try to bring them into the Kingdom and to keep them from leaving once in.

This man is God in flesh, whose name is Jesus. It doesn’t make any difference regarding commas. Are we seriously going to get hung up on this powerful truth Paul is telling because of a comma? Do we suppose Paul focused on that while evangelizing?

No, he met God on the road to Damascus, laid down his life to tell that truth. It would still be the truth of the story with or without commas. Hang the comma. Who cares?

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 03:26 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1607100)
I am saying that the context of the passage is that God is still on the side of national Israel, and their Messiah has come, through their lineage. Paul’s work in Romans was to grab Israel and to try to bring them into the Kingdom and to keep them from leaving once in.

This man is God in flesh, whose name is Jesus. It doesn’t make any difference regarding commas. Are we seriously going to get hung up on this powerful truth Paul is telling because of a comma? Do we suppose Paul focused on that while evangelizing?

No, he met God on the road to Damascus, laid down his life to tell that truth. It would still be the truth of the story with or without commas. Hang the comma. Who cares?

The problem with the comma is that it changes the meaning of the phrase. And I care about that. I suspect you should care as well.

If you are saying that the comma is in error, you are saying that the KJV is mistranslated. That in my opinion is a slippery slope. Where do we stop changing the Bible. Is it with punctuation and not words? Or will we also change the words as well as the punctuation?

Esaias 12-28-2021 05:04 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607101)
The problem with the comma is that it changes the meaning of the phrase. And I care about that. I suspect you should care as well.

If you are saying that the comma is in error, you are saying that the KJV is mistranslated. That in my opinion is a slippery slope. Where do we stop changing the Bible. Is it with punctuation and not words? Or will we also change the words as well as the punctuation?

The comma does not change the meaning, though due to modern people's lack of English skills some folks may arrive at an erroneous conclusion. It isn't a translation issue (nothing was translated by any comma as there is no comma in the Greek, and Greek commas do not necessarily mean what modern English commas do anyway).

Christ is over all. He is God and He is blessed forever. The phrase "God blessed" as in "blessed by God" does not appear anywhere in the KJV. I haven't found a commentary yet that takes the phrase to mean Christ is blessed by God. Which inclines me to think the interpretation "blessed by God forever" is a modern result of bad English skills.

All commenters seem divided into either "Christ is over all, He is God who is blessed forever", or "Blessed be God forever who is over all". That latter however I believe is sufficiently refuted by both the English and the Greek grammar. The former is a perfectly good rendering of both the Greek and English.

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 05:50 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607107)
The comma does not change the meaning, though due to modern people's lack of English skills some folks may arrive at an erroneous conclusion. It isn't a translation issue (nothing was translated by any comma as there is no comma in the Greek, and Greek commas do not necessarily mean what modern English commas do anyway).

Christ is over all. He is God and He is blessed forever. The phrase "God blessed" as in "blessed by God" does not appear anywhere in the KJV. I haven't found a commentary yet that takes the phrase to mean Christ is blessed by God. Which inclines me to think the interpretation "blessed by God forever" is a modern result of bad English skills.

All commenters seem divided into either "Christ is over all, He is God who is blessed forever", or "Blessed be God forever who is over all". That latter however I believe is sufficiently refuted by both the English and the Greek grammar. The former is a perfectly good rendering of both the Greek and English.

Gen.1

[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen.2

[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen.9

[1] And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen.25

[11] And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahai-roi.
Deut.33

[1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
1Chr.26

[5] Ammiel the sixth, Issachar the seventh, Peulthai the eighth: for God blessed him.
Rom.9

[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 06:02 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607107)
The comma does not change the meaning, though due to modern people's lack of English skills some folks may arrive at an erroneous conclusion. It isn't a translation issue (nothing was translated by any comma as there is no comma in the Greek, and Greek commas do not necessarily mean what modern English commas do anyway).

Christ is over all. He is God and He is blessed forever. The phrase "God blessed" as in "blessed by God" does not appear anywhere in the KJV. I haven't found a commentary yet that takes the phrase to mean Christ is blessed by God. Which inclines me to think the interpretation "blessed by God forever" is a modern result of bad English skills.

All commenters seem divided into either "Christ is over all, He is God who is blessed forever", or "Blessed be God forever who is over all". That latter however I believe is sufficiently refuted by both the English and the Greek grammar. The former is a perfectly good rendering of both the Greek and English.

The comma does change the meaning. Without the comma the passage means that Jesus is overall God. Without the comma it means that Jesus is overall and is blessed of God forever.

Who is overall? Jesus

Who is blessed of God forever? Jesus

The comma is critical to the interpretation.

Pressing-On 12-28-2021 06:02 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607101)
The problem with the comma is that it changes the meaning of the phrase. And I care about that. I suspect you should care as well.

If you are saying that the comma is in error, you are saying that the KJV is mistranslated. That in my opinion is a slippery slope. Where do we stop changing the Bible. Is it with punctuation and not words? Or will we also change the words as well as the punctuation?

I read the passage, didn’t notice the comma, because I was reading and understanding what Paul was conveying. How would a comma change anything when there is only ONE God?

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 06:08 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1607112)
I read the passage, didn’t notice the comma, because I was reading and understanding what Paul was conveying. How would a comma change anything when there is only ONE God?

Read this saying and tell me if a comma can change the meaning of a phrase.

From a t-shirt.

Let’s eat Grandma.

Let’s eat, Grandma.

The first instance proposes cannibalism (they are gonna eat grandma).

The second refers to sharing a meal WITH the dear, precious and dearly beloved grandma.

Punctuation saves lives.


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