Apostolic Friends Forum - Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

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Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1607124)

Generally your posts are excellent, you can not pretend the comma, or not, is unimportant.

One reason I got involved with these studies is because I simply read the AV text, and without the comma it does not have the apposition claimed, Christ is God. And if people do not understand English, I surely will be skeptical of their Greek mastery. :)

Another reason was that I had seen that there was a tendency to come up with ultra-dubious claims of Christ is God verses, especially from the Granville Sharp verses, that try to correct the AV.

Trinitarians are in fact the biggest pushers of the Christ is God Romans 9:5 textual narrative. However, it is also popular in oneness circles, see my quoting of David Bernard.

Oh, I definitely agree with your "slippery slope" comment .
Very astute!

:thumbsup

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1607151)

This is the awkward multiple ellipses, God doing double-duty, reading.

This is an awkward attempt to dismiss things by stringing some cool sounding words together. It's "awkward" because it doesn't fit your interpretation.

If Christ is over all, as an antithesis to "as concerning the flesh", then He is God.

Godblessed is nonstandard (bad) English. Can you find one example pre-1800 of such a usage? I'd be interested to see it.

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607158)

Romans 9:5?

[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607162)

Romans 9:5?

[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Uh, you do realize that is the point of controversy here, right?

Surely you do. So obviously you are just having fun in the thread.

Right?

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607164)

Uh, you do realize that is the point of controversy here, right?

Surely you do. So obviously you are just having fun in the thread.

Right?

Okay. Maybe another one?

[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607158)

If Christ is over all, as an antithesis to "as concerning the flesh", then He is God.

There are many high Christology verses, such as the ones in Colossians 1:16 and Ephesisans 3:9, that do not say "Christ is God".

One very possible reason is that the NT authors use God for God the Father, and they were not ultra-Sabellian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607158)

Godblessed is nonstandard (bad) English. Can you find one example pre-1800 of such a usage? I'd be interested to see it.

It is nonstandard if you leave out the space or hyphen.
It is a hapax in the Greek NT, and that carries over to the English.

Here is William Sherlock (1641-1707) in 1691 discussing

"One God blessed forever more"

A Vindication of the Doctrine of the Holy and Ever Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation of the Son of God ... The second edition (1691)
https://books.google.com/books?id=U-t-8uuCQKIC&pg=PA176

Here is one with three usages that are more adjectival than verbal.

Discourses Concerning the Ever-blessed Trinity: ... By the Author of the Divine Right of Episcopacy (1720)
Thomas Brett
https://books.google.com/books?id=1WJjAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA126
https://books.google.com/books?id=1WJjAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA154
https://books.google.com/books?id=1WJjAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA167

More
https://books.google.com/books?id=g_BhAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA286
https://books.google.com/books?id=-AEBXDT3uV4C&pg=PA68

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1607168)

Are these examples the use of God about God the Father?

What about John 20:28 John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Heb 1:8 8 But regarding the Son He says “Your throne, God, is forever and ever, And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of His kingdom

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607144)

Where is the antithesis for "as concerning the flesh"? Inserting "as concerning the flesh" introduces an antithetical pair. As concerning the flesh Christ is of Israel. But the antithesis is... what? That Christ is blessed by God? That God deserves to be praised unto the ages?

The only antithesis provided in the text is that He is over all, God. As concerning the flesh, Christ comes from Israel. But on the other hand, He is over all, God. And as God He is "blessed forever."

:thumbsup

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 1607341)

Are these examples the use of God about God the Father?

What about John 20:28 John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

That is a key debate between the Oneness and Trinity positions. Both affirm that Jesus is being called God, but in what way? As the Father, or as God the Son?

Quote:

Heb 1:8 8 But regarding the Son He says “Your throne, God, is forever and ever, And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of His kingdom

This one has a little more depth to it, in that Paul is here quoting from Psalm 45:6.

In order to correctly understand Paul's use, it's important to see how the Psalm plays out:

Psalm 45:6-7 (ESV),

Quote:

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;

According to Paul in Hebrews, the owner of the throne is Jesus, the Son of God, and he uses Psalm 45:6 to support that view.

But look at Psalm 45:7:

Speaking prophetically to the Son per Hebrews 1:8, the psalmist writes (to the Son) "Therefore God, your God, has anointed you [that is, has anointed Jesus the Son of God]..."

So, if Jesus is the God of Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8, and there seems to be no other conclusion, then who is the God of this God in Psalm 45:7?

Is it not the Father?

And these questions are tangentially related to Romans 9:5, because Trinitarians who affirm Christ's deity and say Romans 9:5 calls Christ "God", additionally state that it must be a reference to His deity as God the Son, since the verse says He is over all, but recognize that in other writings, Paul insists that God the Father has not been put in subjection to the Son, therefore meaning Christ is over all with the exception of the Father:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (ESV),

Quote:

24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.