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Steven Avery 12-16-2021 04:00 AM

Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

For now, try to avoid Greek stuff, and try to read it without doctrinal glasses, and don't run to commentaries.

Later, I can give possibilities, but I would like your feedback without planting any ideas :) .

Thanks!

Steven

Tithesmeister 12-16-2021 05:11 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606788)
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

For now, try to avoid Greek stuff, and try to read it without doctrinal glasses, and don't run to commentaries.

Later, I can give possibilities, but I would like your feedback without planting any ideas :) .

Thanks!

Steven

Paul is referring to the Israelites. Not Gentiles by nature who are spiritual Jews but those who are Jews according to the flesh (biological descendants of Abraham). Also they are nonbelievers which makes Paul grieve for them.

Steven Avery 12-17-2021 03:22 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1606793)
Paul is referring to the Israelites. Not Gentiles by nature who are spiritual Jews but those who are Jews according to the flesh (biological descendants of Abraham). Also they are nonbelievers which makes Paul grieve for them.

Thanks!

This does not clarify:

“God blessed foe ever.”

mizpeh 12-17-2021 06:06 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606788)
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

I understand it as Paul blessing Christ, the God that came to save us by He himself becoming like us.

Tithesmeister 12-17-2021 07:02 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606798)
Thanks!

This does not clarify:

“God blessed foe ever.”

I’m sorry. I missed that. It seems to be that Jesus is blessed by God forever.

Steven Avery 12-20-2021 04:42 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 1606805)
I understand it as Paul blessing Christ, the God that came to save us by He himself becoming like us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1606806)
It seems to be that Jesus is blessed by God forever.

Thank you Mizpeh and Tithesmeister.

Two radically different interpretations,

votivesoul 12-21-2021 03:29 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606788)
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

For now, try to avoid Greek stuff, and try to read it without doctrinal glasses, and don't run to commentaries.

Later, I can give possibilities, but I would like your feedback without planting any ideas :) .

Thanks!

Steven

The AV seems to take a tentative, even conservative approach to a most difficult to translate verse. As it reads, it suggests a leaning toward being a doxology to God. But it is ambiguous, and I think, left so intentionally, so that other interpretations are available, that is, they were not trying to nail down any, one, definitive approach for all time, but allowed the difficulty of the text to show through their translation, without being dogmatic about it.

I would call it a noble act of humility on their part.

And as such, I think they did a good job.

Because honestly, most translators fall into one of two camps:

1.) A doxology to God
2.) Christ is here called "God over all".

Very little middle ground from whatever side.

But I think what the AV translators have done is admirable in the sense that it actually allows for both interpretations at the same time. It is therefore the most versatile translation possible. It holds both positions in tension, but not in conflict.

And this way, I think, is correct, because both views are the truth. They are not pitted against each other. There is no reason to take sides. Romans 9:5 is both a doxology to God and a statement affirming the Divinity of the Christ.

To translate it differently, that is, to make it read one way or the other, as opposed to both (like some of the more modern English versions do, e.g. NIV, ESV, or RSV) causes one aspect or the other to entirely disappear, which is a mistake.

Pressing-On 12-21-2021 08:34 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1606846)
The AV seems to take a tentative, even conservative approach to a most difficult to translate verse. As it reads, it suggests a leaning toward being a doxology to God. But it is ambiguous, and I think, left so intentionally, so that other interpretations are available, that is, they were not trying to nail down any, one, definitive approach for all time, but allowed the difficulty of the text to show through their translation, without being dogmatic about it.

I would call it a noble act of humility on their part.

And as such, I think they did a good job.

Because honestly, most translators fall into one of two camps:

1.) A doxology to God
2.) Christ is here called "God over all".

Very little middle ground from whatever side.

But I think what the AV translators have done is admirable in the sense that it actually allows for both interpretations at the same time. It is therefore the most versatile translation possible. It holds both positions in tension, but not in conflict.

And this way, I think, is correct, because both views are the truth. They are not pitted against each other. There is no reason to take sides. Romans 9:5 is both a doxology to God and a statement affirming the Divinity of the Christ.

To translate it differently, that is, to make it read one way or the other, as opposed to both (like some of the more modern English versions do, e.g. NIV, ESV, or RSV) causes one aspect or the other to entirely disappear, which is a mistake.

That was a nice little sneaky thing you did, Votive. How intelligent your post reads! Bravo!

However, the truth is, Deut. 6:4 is everything and the ONLY thing, and it covers the entire Old and New Testament.

Regardless of whatever commentary you received your thoughts from, the passage is simply saying, God is manifest in the flesh - He is over ALL.

…”as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.”

There are no two views. It is not a doxology. The passage is explaining WHO God is. There is nothing else going on.

Steven Avery 12-22-2021 09:10 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1606856)

Regardless of whatever commentary you received your thoughts from, the passage is simply saying, God is manifest in the flesh - He is over ALL.

…”as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.”

Definitely Christ is over all (although not over God the Father.)

What does "God blessed for ever" mean?
Is Christ blessed by God.
Is God blessed by Paul, or creation?
And if God is blessed, why would that mean Christ is God?

Steven Avery 12-24-2021 11:48 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

a) God (be) blessed for ever. (by creation, his people, Paul)

b) (Christ is) God, (who is) blessed for ever.

c) God blessed (is Christ) for ever.

d) God blessed (are the Israelites, through Christ) for ever

Pressing-On 12-25-2021 03:00 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606918)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

a) God (be) blessed for ever. (by creation, his people, Paul)

b) (Christ is) God, (who is) blessed for ever.

c) God blessed (is Christ) for ever.

d) God blessed (are the Israelites, through Christ) for ever

…”as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.”


The flesh is Christ, who is God, who is blessed forever. It is really pretty simple.

Nothing else is going on in that passage.

Steven Avery 12-26-2021 12:11 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1606941)
…”as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever.”
The flesh is Christ, who is God, who is blessed forever. It is really pretty simple.
Nothing else is going on in that passage.

That would be (b) above. If there was a comma after God, it would be pretty simple. Except that it would be Christ who is blessed forever, and God by apposition.

===============================

Oneness and Trinity - A.D. 100-300
The Doctrine of God in Ancient Christian Writings (1991)
David K. Bernard
https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/...%20Bernard.pdf

In Against Noetus, Hippolytus reported that Noetus used the following passages of Scripture to support his doctrine: Exodus 3:6; 20:3; Isaiah 44:6; 45:14; John 10:30; 14:9; Romans 9:5.

===============================

Amanah 12-26-2021 05:31 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606946)
That would be (b) above. If there was a comma after God, it would be pretty simple. Except that it would be Christ who is blessed forever, and God by apposition.

===============================

Oneness and Trinity - A.D. 100-300
The Doctrine of God in Ancient Christian Writings (1991)
David K. Bernard
https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/...%20Bernard.pdf

In Against Noetus, Hippolytus reported that Noetus used the following passages of Scripture to support his doctrine: Exodus 3:6; 20:3; Isaiah 44:6; 45:14; John 10:30; 14:9; Romans 9:5.

===============================

Who added the punctuation, is that inspired also?

Pressing-On 12-26-2021 01:48 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1606846)
The AV seems to take a tentative, even conservative approach to a most difficult to translate verse. As it reads, it suggests a leaning toward being a doxology to God. But it is ambiguous, and I think, left so intentionally, so that other interpretations are available, that is, they were not trying to nail down any, one, definitive approach for all time, but allowed the difficulty of the text to show through their translation, without being dogmatic about it.

I would call it a noble act of humility on their part.

And as such, I think they did a good job.

Because honestly, most translators fall into one of two camps:

1.) A doxology to God
2.) Christ is here called "God over all".

Very little middle ground from whatever side.

But I think what the AV translators have done is admirable in the sense that it actually allows for both interpretations at the same time. It is therefore the most versatile translation possible. It holds both positions in tension, but not in conflict.

And this way, I think, is correct, because both views are the truth. They are not pitted against each other. There is no reason to take sides. Romans 9:5 is both a doxology to God and a statement affirming the Divinity of the Christ.

To translate it differently, that is, to make it read one way or the other, as opposed to both (like some of the more modern English versions do, e.g. NIV, ESV, or RSV) causes one aspect or the other to entirely disappear, which is a mistake.

It remains then, that we have here no doxology at all, but a naked statement of fact, that while Christ is "of" the Israelitish nation "as concerning the flesh," He is, in another respect, "God over all, blessed for ever." JFB

Pressing-On 12-26-2021 01:53 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606946)
That would be (b) above. If there was a comma after God, it would be pretty simple. Except that it would be Christ who is blessed forever, and God by apposition.

It doesn’t appear to make any difference where the comma is placed or whether or not “is” is inserted before God. It is very simple because we know that Jesus is God.

I don’t really know what it is you want the passage to mean. If you are trying to make it mean anything else, that is problematic for you.

Other translations agree:

New International Version
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

New Living Translation
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

English Standard Version
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Berean Study Bible
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.

International Standard Version
To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.

Literal Standard Version
whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed for all ages. Amen.

NET Bible
To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Steven Avery 12-27-2021 12:12 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1606962)
It doesn’t appear to make any difference where the comma is placed or whether or not “is” is inserted before God. It is very simple because we know that Jesus is God.

I don’t really know what it is you want the passage to mean. If you are trying to make it mean anything else, that is problematic for you.

The comma would make a big difference, creating an apposition of Christ and God, yet also disconnecting God and blessed.

And I gave four possible interpretations of the AV text above.

In fact, Jesus is rarely, if ever, declared as God in the New Testament, the norm is to use dual addressing. There are dozens of examples of dual addressing. Most evangelicals would find Jesus as God the Father objectionable doctrinally, although oneness proponents may like that interpretation.

Yes, there are verses like "God was manifest in the flesh", the Colossians verses, John 1:1, "my Lord and my God", those are of a different nature than leaving the AV and saying the TEXT says "Christ is God', a common mistranslation in about 3 verses.

Steven Avery 12-27-2021 12:16 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1606949)
Who added the punctuation, is that inspired also?

The AV word order is exactly that of the TR text, which does not add any punctuation. Thus the learned men of the AV added any punctuation that they felt would be correct in the English. I consider the AV my authority, higher than the competing Greek analyses.

There are other tries that either add punctuation in the Greek and/or change the word order. I am ignoring those, they tend to want to separate Christ from God completely.

votivesoul 12-27-2021 02:03 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Some earlier English translations add an interesting component to the discussion, vis a vis, the AV text:

Bishops (1568),

Of whom are the fathers, of whom as concernyng the fleshe, Christe [came,] which is God, in all thynges to be praysed for euer. Amen.

Geneva (1587),

Of whome are the fathers, and of whome concerning the flesh, Christ came, who is God ouer all, blessed for euer, Amen.

Wycliffe (1382),

whose be the fathers, and of which is Christ after the flesh, that is God above all things, blessed into worlds. Amen.

Tyndale (1534),

whose also are the fathers and they of whome (as concernynge the flesshe) Christ came which is God over all thinges blessed for ever Amen.

And for comparison:

Reina-Valera (1602),

Cuyos son los padres, y de los cuales vino Cristo según la carne, el cual es Dios sobre todas las cosas, bendito por siempre. Amén.

Luther (1534),

welcher auch sind die Väter, und aus welchen Christus herkommt nach dem Fleisch, der da ist Gott über alles, gelobt in Ewigkeit. Amen.

Each of these well-known versions, all of which predate the KJV all leave no room for interpretation, that Christ is God. Even the Spanish and German read the same.

And yet, the KJV translators went a different route. Why? Surely, they were not ignorant of these earlier readings, especially Wycliffe's, Tyndale, the Bishop's, and Geneva?

For whatever reason, they elected to not leave the text unambiguous. They gave just enough room for more than one interpretation.

I submit that they were aware of the notoriously difficult nature of the verse in question and deciding to not presume one way or the other too forcefully, instead found a happy medium between the most common two understandings.

Pressing-On 12-27-2021 07:45 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606986)
The comma would make a big difference, creating an apposition of Christ and God, yet also disconnecting God and blessed.

And I gave four possible interpretations of the AV text above.

In fact, Jesus is rarely, if ever, declared as God in the New Testament, the norm is to use dual addressing. There are dozens of examples of dual addressing. Most evangelicals would find Jesus as God the Father objectionable doctrinally, although oneness proponents may like that interpretation.

Yes, there are verses like "God was manifest in the flesh", the Colossians verses, John 1:1, "my Lord and my God", those are of a different nature than leaving the AV and saying the TEXT says "Christ is God', a common mistranslation in about 3 verses.

I am very sure Paul, who wrote the Book of Romans, was simply teaching God was in Christ as he did many times, i.e., 2 Corinthians 5:19. After all, he is the one who asked, “Who art thou, Lord?” - “I am Jesus”.

New Living Translation: “Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was a Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.”

Nothing “dual” going on here. Paul is, again, confirming to the readers who God is. It is very strange to me for you to declare that Paul is not understanding nor teaching a doctrine here or to say, in effect, that Paul never declared God in the New Testament.

Pressing-On 12-27-2021 07:54 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1606988)
Some earlier English translations add an interesting component to the discussion, vis a vis, the AV text:

Bishops (1568),

Of whom are the fathers, of whom as concernyng the fleshe, Christe [came,] which is God, in all thynges to be praysed for euer. Amen.

Geneva (1587),

Of whome are the fathers, and of whome concerning the flesh, Christ came, who is God ouer all, blessed for euer, Amen.

Wycliffe (1382),

whose be the fathers, and of which is Christ after the flesh, that is God above all things, blessed into worlds. Amen.

Tyndale (1534),

whose also are the fathers and they of whome (as concernynge the flesshe) Christ came which is God over all thinges blessed for ever Amen.

And for comparison:

Reina-Valera (1602),

Cuyos son los padres, y de los cuales vino Cristo según la carne, el cual es Dios sobre todas las cosas, bendito por siempre. Amén.

Luther (1534),

welcher auch sind die Väter, und aus welchen Christus herkommt nach dem Fleisch, der da ist Gott über alles, gelobt in Ewigkeit. Amen.

Each of these well-known versions, all of which predate the KJV all leave no room for interpretation, that Christ is God. Even the Spanish and German read the same.

And yet, the KJV translators went a different route. Why? Surely, they were not ignorant of these earlier readings, especially Wycliffe's, Tyndale, the Bishop's, and Geneva?

For whatever reason, they elected to not leave the text unambiguous. They gave just enough room for more than one interpretation.

I submit that they were aware of the notoriously difficult nature of the verse in question and deciding to not presume one way or the other too forcefully, instead found a happy medium between the most common two understandings.

I submit that JFB has it perfectly right - It remains then, that we have here no doxology at all, but a naked statement of fact, that while Christ is "of" the Israelitish nation "as concerning the flesh," He is, in another respect, "God over all, blessed for ever."

And I submit that Paul left nothing ambiguous. I understood him perfectly when I read the passage. I certainly didn’t need commas to fully understand him. When you know who God is, the passage could never be “notoriously difficult in nature”. Good choice of words though. It makes it seems frightfully difficult to comprehend - “notoriously difficult” - scary! Lol!

IMO, it appears a sneaky, slight of hand to convince the readers they aren’t seeing the plain language of the passage- Jesus is God, He rules over everything and is worthy of our praise!

Esaias 12-27-2021 08:49 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1606788)
Romans 9:4-5 (AV)
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;

Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Beautiful, majestic verses.

==========================================

Just looking at the English, how would you understand

"God blessed for ever"

For now, try to avoid Greek stuff, and try to read it without doctrinal glasses, and don't run to commentaries.

Later, I can give possibilities, but I would like your feedback without planting any ideas :) .

Thanks!

Steven

It is a doxology: Christ is over all, God, blessed forever.

Pressing-On 12-28-2021 08:43 AM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Paul opens chapter 9 with a solemn oath:

Romans 9:1 “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,…”

He ends the chapter with an equally solemn oath:

Romans 9:5 “Amen”

So, what was he trying to convey?

Romans 9:4 “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;”

1. Adoption pertains to Israel - “Thus says the Lord: ‘Israel is My son, My firstborn’” (Exodus 4:22)
2. Glory pertains to Israel - Exodus 16:10; 24:17; 40:34; I Kings 8:11.)
3. Covenants pertain to Israel. (8, although number 4. may indicate Paul considers Law of Moses as separate.)
4. Giving of the law pertains to Israel.
5. Service of God pertains to Israel - tabernacle and temple worship.
6. Promises pertain to Israel - many promises, but especially the Messiah.

Romans 9:5 “Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”

The blessings were included toward Israel, as a nation, because of their respected fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their final blessing, as a nation, would be their Messiah who received his humanity from them.

He is, therefore, the supreme “over all”, eternally blessed God.

He clarified in these two passages that he was deeply concerned and loved the nation Israel. And while he has to tell them that Moses’ law is over and cannot save them, it doesn’t mean that he and God are not still concerned for the whole nation.

That is why I agree with JFB - “we have here no doxology at all, but a naked statement of fact, that while Christ is "of" the Israelitish nation "as concerning the flesh," He is, in another respect, "God over all, blessed for ever."

Amen!

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 12:48 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1607080)
Paul opens chapter 9 with a solemn oath:

Romans 9:1 “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,…”

He ends the chapter with an equally solemn oath:

Romans 9:5 “Amen”

So, what was he trying to convey?

Romans 9:4 “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;”

1. Adoption pertains to Israel - “Thus says the Lord: ‘Israel is My son, My firstborn’” (Exodus 4:22)
2. Glory pertains to Israel - Exodus 16:10; 24:17; 40:34; I Kings 8:11.)
3. Covenants pertain to Israel. (8, although number 4. may indicate Paul considers Law of Moses as separate.)
4. Giving of the law pertains to Israel.
5. Service of God pertains to Israel - tabernacle and temple worship.
6. Promises pertain to Israel - many promises, but especially the Messiah.

Romans 9:5 “Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”

The blessings were included toward Israel, as a nation, because of their respected fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their final blessing, as a nation, would be their Messiah who received his humanity from them.

He is, therefore, the supreme “over all”, eternally blessed God.

He clarified in these two passages that he was deeply concerned and loved the nation Israel. And while he has to tell them that Moses’ law is over and cannot save them, it doesn’t mean that he and God are not still concerned for the whole nation.

That is why I agree with JFB - “we have here no doxology at all, but a naked statement of fact, that while Christ is "of" the Israelitish nation "as concerning the flesh," He is, in another respect, "God over all, blessed for ever."

Amen!

It seems to me that you are saying that there should be a comma after God and before blessed. Is that your opinion?

Pressing-On 12-28-2021 03:00 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607090)
It seems to me that you are saying that there should be a comma after God and before blessed. Is that your opinion?

I am saying that the context of the passage is that God is still on the side of national Israel, and their Messiah has come, through their lineage. Paul’s work in Romans was to grab Israel and to try to bring them into the Kingdom and to keep them from leaving once in.

This man is God in flesh, whose name is Jesus. It doesn’t make any difference regarding commas. Are we seriously going to get hung up on this powerful truth Paul is telling because of a comma? Do we suppose Paul focused on that while evangelizing?

No, he met God on the road to Damascus, laid down his life to tell that truth. It would still be the truth of the story with or without commas. Hang the comma. Who cares?

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 03:26 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1607100)
I am saying that the context of the passage is that God is still on the side of national Israel, and their Messiah has come, through their lineage. Paul’s work in Romans was to grab Israel and to try to bring them into the Kingdom and to keep them from leaving once in.

This man is God in flesh, whose name is Jesus. It doesn’t make any difference regarding commas. Are we seriously going to get hung up on this powerful truth Paul is telling because of a comma? Do we suppose Paul focused on that while evangelizing?

No, he met God on the road to Damascus, laid down his life to tell that truth. It would still be the truth of the story with or without commas. Hang the comma. Who cares?

The problem with the comma is that it changes the meaning of the phrase. And I care about that. I suspect you should care as well.

If you are saying that the comma is in error, you are saying that the KJV is mistranslated. That in my opinion is a slippery slope. Where do we stop changing the Bible. Is it with punctuation and not words? Or will we also change the words as well as the punctuation?

Esaias 12-28-2021 05:04 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607101)
The problem with the comma is that it changes the meaning of the phrase. And I care about that. I suspect you should care as well.

If you are saying that the comma is in error, you are saying that the KJV is mistranslated. That in my opinion is a slippery slope. Where do we stop changing the Bible. Is it with punctuation and not words? Or will we also change the words as well as the punctuation?

The comma does not change the meaning, though due to modern people's lack of English skills some folks may arrive at an erroneous conclusion. It isn't a translation issue (nothing was translated by any comma as there is no comma in the Greek, and Greek commas do not necessarily mean what modern English commas do anyway).

Christ is over all. He is God and He is blessed forever. The phrase "God blessed" as in "blessed by God" does not appear anywhere in the KJV. I haven't found a commentary yet that takes the phrase to mean Christ is blessed by God. Which inclines me to think the interpretation "blessed by God forever" is a modern result of bad English skills.

All commenters seem divided into either "Christ is over all, He is God who is blessed forever", or "Blessed be God forever who is over all". That latter however I believe is sufficiently refuted by both the English and the Greek grammar. The former is a perfectly good rendering of both the Greek and English.

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 05:50 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607107)
The comma does not change the meaning, though due to modern people's lack of English skills some folks may arrive at an erroneous conclusion. It isn't a translation issue (nothing was translated by any comma as there is no comma in the Greek, and Greek commas do not necessarily mean what modern English commas do anyway).

Christ is over all. He is God and He is blessed forever. The phrase "God blessed" as in "blessed by God" does not appear anywhere in the KJV. I haven't found a commentary yet that takes the phrase to mean Christ is blessed by God. Which inclines me to think the interpretation "blessed by God forever" is a modern result of bad English skills.

All commenters seem divided into either "Christ is over all, He is God who is blessed forever", or "Blessed be God forever who is over all". That latter however I believe is sufficiently refuted by both the English and the Greek grammar. The former is a perfectly good rendering of both the Greek and English.

Gen.1

[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen.2

[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen.9

[1] And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen.25

[11] And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahai-roi.
Deut.33

[1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
1Chr.26

[5] Ammiel the sixth, Issachar the seventh, Peulthai the eighth: for God blessed him.
Rom.9

[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 06:02 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607107)
The comma does not change the meaning, though due to modern people's lack of English skills some folks may arrive at an erroneous conclusion. It isn't a translation issue (nothing was translated by any comma as there is no comma in the Greek, and Greek commas do not necessarily mean what modern English commas do anyway).

Christ is over all. He is God and He is blessed forever. The phrase "God blessed" as in "blessed by God" does not appear anywhere in the KJV. I haven't found a commentary yet that takes the phrase to mean Christ is blessed by God. Which inclines me to think the interpretation "blessed by God forever" is a modern result of bad English skills.

All commenters seem divided into either "Christ is over all, He is God who is blessed forever", or "Blessed be God forever who is over all". That latter however I believe is sufficiently refuted by both the English and the Greek grammar. The former is a perfectly good rendering of both the Greek and English.

The comma does change the meaning. Without the comma the passage means that Jesus is overall God. Without the comma it means that Jesus is overall and is blessed of God forever.

Who is overall? Jesus

Who is blessed of God forever? Jesus

The comma is critical to the interpretation.

Pressing-On 12-28-2021 06:02 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607101)
The problem with the comma is that it changes the meaning of the phrase. And I care about that. I suspect you should care as well.

If you are saying that the comma is in error, you are saying that the KJV is mistranslated. That in my opinion is a slippery slope. Where do we stop changing the Bible. Is it with punctuation and not words? Or will we also change the words as well as the punctuation?

I read the passage, didn’t notice the comma, because I was reading and understanding what Paul was conveying. How would a comma change anything when there is only ONE God?

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 06:08 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1607112)
I read the passage, didn’t notice the comma, because I was reading and understanding what Paul was conveying. How would a comma change anything when there is only ONE God?

Read this saying and tell me if a comma can change the meaning of a phrase.

From a t-shirt.

Let’s eat Grandma.

Let’s eat, Grandma.

The first instance proposes cannibalism (they are gonna eat grandma).

The second refers to sharing a meal WITH the dear, precious and dearly beloved grandma.

Punctuation saves lives.

Pressing-On 12-28-2021 06:42 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607114)
Read this saying and tell me if a comma can change the meaning of a phrase.

From a t-shirt.

Let’s eat Grandma.

Let’s eat, Grandma.

The first instance proposes cannibalism (they are gonna eat grandma).

The second refers to sharing a meal WITH the dear, precious and dearly beloved grandma.

Punctuation saves lives.

That’s great for your Grandma or not. Lol!

However, in Romans 9, it doesn’t and didn’t change what Paul was telling the Jews about who God was/is.

It was very simple and matter of fact. He was talking and writing to people who weren’t going to be hung up on a comma, which as Esaias also said - It doesn’t change the meaning.

I don’t know what else to say.

It was so beautifully written and explained, and now it is getting sullied up over a comma. The debate is coming across as crafting a Trinitarian narrative and subtly trying to cause a reader to become confused. All the while it is power, beauty and very simple.

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 07:50 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1607120)
That’s great for your Grandma or not. Lol!

However, in Romans 9, it doesn’t and didn’t change what Paul was telling the Jews about who God was/is.

It was very simple and matter of fact. He was talking and writing to people who weren’t going to be hung up on a comma, which as Esaias also said - It doesn’t change the meaning.

I don’t know what else to say.

It was so beautifully written and explained, and now it is getting sullied up over a comma. The debate is coming across as crafting a Trinitarian narrative and subtly trying to cause a reader to become confused. All the while it is power, beauty and very simple.

Maybe I should let Steven Avery sort this all out. One of us is confused. Remember though, he asked us to focus on the meaning of one phrase: “God blessed for ever”.

I missed it at first but he corrected me.

Steven Avery 12-28-2021 08:33 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607123)
Maybe I should let Steven Avery sort this all out. One of us is confused. Remember though, he asked us to focus on the meaning of one phrase: “God blessed for ever”.

I missed it at first but he corrected me.

Generally your posts are excellent, you can not pretend the comma, or not, is unimportant.

One reason I got involved with these studies is because I simply read the AV text, and without the comma it does not have the apposition claimed, Christ is God. And if people do not understand English, I surely will be skeptical of their Greek mastery. :)

Another reason was that I had seen that there was a tendency to come up with ultra-dubious claims of Christ is God verses, especially from the Granville Sharp verses, that try to correct the AV.

Trinitarians are in fact the biggest pushers of the Christ is God Romans 9:5 textual narrative. However, it is also popular in oneness circles, see my quoting of David Bernard.

Oh, I definitely agree with your "slippery slope" comment .
Very astute!

Steven Avery 12-28-2021 08:47 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607107)
The comma does not change the meaning, though due to modern people's lack of English skills some folks may arrive at an erroneous conclusion. It isn't a translation issue (nothing was translated by any comma as there is no comma in the Greek, and Greek commas do not necessarily mean what modern English commas do anyway).

.... I haven't found a commentary yet that takes the phrase to mean Christ is blessed by God. Which inclines me to think the interpretation "blessed by God forever" is a modern result of bad English skills.

All commenters seem divided into either "Christ is over all, He is God who is blessed forever", or "Blessed be God forever who is over all". That latter however I believe is sufficiently refuted by both the English and the Greek grammar. The former is a perfectly good rendering of both the Greek and English.

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

A comma after God does in fact make a radical change in meaning.

a) it creates the definite apposition, Christ == God.
b) it separates God from blessed, which is a natural association

You might claim (a) without the comma, but you have to work with a double or triple ellipsis. It is an awkward claim at best.

Thus without the comma leads to different interpretations than with the comma. In fact, many writers who discuss this verse simply quietly add the comma after God.

Early Greek manuscripts often do have punctuation, as do some dozens of cursives. This is not really relevant, since we are studying the AV text, but I want to correct what you say above.

You are right that most all commentators fall into that dichotomy. And many early church writers like the Christ is God understanding. There seems to be a bandwagon effect, with the taking of sides. No middle ground, no nuanced understanding. Simply reading the AV text for its plain sense, you have a high Christology, but you do not have Christ is God.

My side is whatever the pure Bible, the AV, tells me :). We should let the pure Bible text inform our doctrine, and not change the text to match our doctrines.

Esaias 12-28-2021 09:03 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607110)
Gen.1

[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen.2

[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen.9

[1] And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen.25

[11] And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahai-roi.
Deut.33

[1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
1Chr.26

[5] Ammiel the sixth, Issachar the seventh, Peulthai the eighth: for God blessed him.
Rom.9

[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

I meant as in "blessed by God", as in "Jedidiah was God blessed for his faith". In the examples you cited (except the last), "God" is the subject of the clause in which it appears. Romans 9:5 does not follow that construction according to those who think the passage is saying Christ was "God blessed", for in that case the subject of the clause would be "Christ" and "God blessed" would function as a compound passive verb of the predicate.

The 1 Chron26 citation is "Moses the man of God blessed" not "God blessed" and so doesn't even apply to the discussion.

Tithesmeister 12-28-2021 09:09 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607127)
I meant as in "blessed by God", as in "Jedidiah was God blessed for his faith". In the examples you cited (except the last), "God" is the subject of the clause in which it appears. Romans 9:5 does not follow that construction according to those who think the passage is saying Christ was "God blessed", for in that case the subject of the clause would be "Christ" and "God blessed" would function as a compound passive verb of the predicate.

The 1 Chron26 citation is "Moses the man of God blessed" not "God blessed" and so doesn't even apply to the discussion.

I saw that after I posted but I was too lazy to edit.

Steven Avery 12-28-2021 09:12 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1607080)
He is, therefore, the supreme “over all”, eternally blessed God.

He clarified in these two passages that he was deeply concerned and loved the nation Israel. And while he has to tell them that Moses’ law is over and cannot save them, it doesn’t mean that he and God are not still concerned for the whole nation.

That is why I agree with JFB - “we have here no doxology at all, but a naked statement of fact, that while Christ is "of" the Israelitish nation "as concerning the flesh," He is, in another respect, "God over all, blessed for ever."

While I am sympathetic to the Israel with Christ emphasis, you are using phrases that are not in the AV text:

eternally blessed God
God over all

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Esaias 12-28-2021 09:18 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1607125)
A comma after God does in fact make a radical change in meaning.

a) it creates the definite apposition, Christ == God.
b) it separates God from blessed, which is a natural association

You might claim (a) without the comma, but you have to work with a double or triple ellipsis. It is an awkward claim at best.

Thus without the comma leads to different interpretations. In fact, many writers who discuss this verse simply quietly add the comma.

Early Greek manuscripts often do have punctuation, as do some dozens of cursives. This is not really relevant, since we are studying the AV text, but I want to correct what you say above.

You are right that most all commentators fall into that dichotomy. And many early church writers like the Christ is God understanding. There seems to be a bandwagon effect, with the taking of sides.

My side is whatever the pure Bible, the AV, tells me :). We should let the Bible text inform our doctrine, and not change the text to match our doctrines.

Well yes, but the pure Bible text is the Greek Textus Receptus not English. :)

The theological dichotomy is between Christ according to the flesh and its necessary corrolary "according to the spirit", which is supplied by "who is over all, God blessed for ever". God is by nature "over all", thus Christ is God by nature. And of course God is "blessed unto the ages" which is a brief doxological statement as was and is common to devout Judeans (like Paul).

Apparently this verse was assumed by practically everyone except the Arians to be a direct and uncontroversial statement of Christ's deity. I believe it was also contested between trinitarians and so called "Sabellians" as to what exactly it signified (centering on the definite article - or lack thereof). Those who tried to deflect from the verse's statement of Christ's deity resorted to serious eisegesis in trying to make it read "Blessed be God forever who is over all" or some variation thereof. (This is the "doxology" interpretation JFB referenced in Pressing On's posts above.) Needless to say, such an approach is a wrangling not only of the Greek but the English of the AV as well.

Esaias 12-28-2021 09:19 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607128)
I saw that after I posted but I was too lazy to edit.

It's all good. I, too, get lazy betimes. :heeheehee

Esaias 12-28-2021 09:24 PM

Re: Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 1607129)
While I am sympathetic to the Israel with Christ emphasis, you are using phrases that are not in the AV text:

eternally blessed God
God over all

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Edit: nevermind, you didn't want to get into the Greek.

Can the English determine grammatically if the term God is a predicate object of "who is"? Or if it definitively is NOT and that "blessed" is definitely a predicate of the subject "God"?


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