Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infilling
 

BIG difference between the two.

If tongues are just one of the signs, and not THE (initial) sign that always accompanies Spirit infilling, then the doctrine of “tongues as THE evidence” is false, is error.

It seems to me this is the line drawn in the sand regarding tongues- A sign or THE sign.


Without question in the book of Acts, tongues are atleast A sign, but are they ALWAYS THE sign, THE “proof”, THE evidence one is being Spirit filled?

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

This line in the sand means a great deal. I want to bring folks to church with me. I want to reach the sinner, and make disciples. If the doctrine of tongues as THE must be evidence is error, I don’t want to make disciples of a false doctrine. If it is true, I do want to make disciples of this doctrinal truth. Same goes with my family, my children grasping what is, or is not the truth on this subject.

To me, this “quandary” carries a great deal of “weight”.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Evidence and Proof are not the same.

The initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues. A good study of John 3 will reveal this. It is the initial evidence as witnessed throughout Acts.

Tongues is NOT proof! Not everyone who speaks with tongues has received the Holy Ghost. Proof comes over time through the witness of a godly life.

When someone has received the Gift of the Holy Ghost they will speak in tongues initially. The Spirit will then lead them according to their willingness to walk in truth and holiness. God will work through them and they will bear fruit. These evidences of the Holy Ghost are not stand alone, but when combined they offer undeniable proof that someone has received the Holy Ghost.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

This is good.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

This is the biggest issue of our time. Yet its not ours alone. Millions of Trinitarian Pentecostals and Charismatics believe the same thing. We have all examined the book of Acts history and come to the same conclusion.

In the early Church speaking in tongues was the evidence one had received the Holy Ghost. So its not just 12-16 million of Oneness people but rather hundreds of millions of believers around the world.

The big difference there is that WE understand the baptism or "outpouring" of the Holy Spirit is an essential part of salvation. They (in their doctrine) dont need to deal with the implications of this.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

It comes down to this. Was the book of Acts unique in its happenings? Or can we use what happened there as examples of the way God always works?

Its kind of like the constitution of the USA. Some scholars see it as a firm foundation a rock on which we stand. Others see it as subject to interpretation for all situations.

To me it strengthens my belief about tongues that 1 Cor. 14 is in the Bible. We are not left with the book of Acts only. It seems clear Paul was encouraging praying in tongues to the Church in general.

He taught to pray with the SPIRIT and with understanding. I take the epistles as truth for believers up until Jesus comes so moving from a book of Acts ONLY mindset will help us to see tongues as a normal part of the Christian life.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Considering that Paul in both 1 Corinthians links tongues with praying in the Spirit, in Romans references the intercession of the Spirit on our behalf in prayer, and Jude follows up by commanding that we pray in the Holy Ghost to build our faith, I find it hard to reach any other decision than the churches generally spoke in tongues as a normative experience.

There is an argument that we place too much emphasis on these things, but the Apostles did not. However, this argument fails to take into account that the experience was normative and universal. This is no longer the case, and many wish to deny the experience altogether. Since we are having to constantly defend the practice from other "Christians", we must emphasize the fundamental teachings concerning the initiation of the converted into the church. Thus greater exposition on these things than the Apostles needed to provide the early church.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Again, there are non tongue talkers that put some of us tongue talkers to shame when it comes to bearing fruit.

I have pondered in my mind, what was different about Cornelius AFTER he received the Holyghost? We must speculate I suppose....

What are your thoughts on that?
How are those that have spoken in tongues different from other sects that believe in and practice holiness, fruits of the spirit, etc?

And we’re any of Cornelius’ (pre Holyghost) fruit, Spiritual fruit, if he wasn’t born of the Spirit....how could they have been? What then was he “producing?”

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

John chapter 3 says nothing about glossolalia.

Paul discusses the use of vocal gifts in the church, but he does not mention anything about tongues being evidence of Spirit infilling.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

James, there is no doubt about the character of Cornelius, just as there is none about Mary, Matthew, Peter, John, or Paul. It is not upon receiving the Holy Ghost that one rejects the sinful lifestyles of the past, though they will be fully revealed as the affront to Christ that the are.

Cornelius was for all of his good works still unsaved. This is evidenced by both his angelic visitation and the words of Peter. So it is with Dr. Dobson and other good men. The plan and standard has not changed a single iota, no matter how good a person is.

Yes, there are some who are unsaved that demonstrate admirable qualities, but even idolatrous religions may have an element of truth. The first two Noble Truths of Buddhism are true. Life is suffering, and this suffering is rooted in man's selfishness. This does not make their religion true, nor do these truths save them. Islam commands all men to submit unto God or be damned, but all of their submitting does not keep them from Hell. If these things are also true, why would a lifestyle of holiness, separated from the world, but not having attained the fullness of God's redemption, save anyone, no matter that they were called Christian. Jesus stated that in the day of judgment, there would be many sincere people, having testimony of their good works and believing in Him, that are rejected and called workers of iniquity.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Nobody argues that Cornelius was unsaved before his encounter w Peter preaching Christ to him in Acts 10. Cornelius thought the good news was only for the Jews, then he found out it was for the gentiles as well. The argument lies in if receiving the Spirit evidenced by tongues was part of his salvation....part of his spiritual rebirth to which without it he was not born again nor saved.
I’m not arguing for or against...just sayin.



How and in what ways do u feel Cornelius was different on his “fruit” after he was Spirit filled evidenced w tongues?

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

It’s interesting to me that the Holyghost just fell on them in Acts 2&10 following the gospel being preached to them. Some waiting in Acts 2, it just fell in Acts 10, but not really seeking the Holyghost or tongues...unlike “nowadays Pentecost”, we say we are not seeking tongues, but that is somewhat inaccurate since sometimes we don’t stop what we have deemed “praying folks through”(unlike Acts 2 &10)till we hear them speak in tongues, then we sort of back off, “that’s it!”. To say we don’t seek tongues, we just seek the Holyghost and tongues come, seems a little bit “dishonest”. We do seek the evidence of tongues whether we admit it or not.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

What’s your point?

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

First of all, because he was already avoiding sin, the good fruit of his life would be made more abundant. Further, since only a rough sketch of his life is provided are not made aware that much needed was needed for him to change drastically.

As for your second point, I believe this came about do to unScriptural practices introduced by Charles Parham and those believing in the intermediate step of Sanctification. I believe that often we have rushed the stage of repentance, when many need to spend the time digging out sin from their hearts, and spend time fighting them into receiving the Holy Ghost. This is especially true if the person has no background with Pentecostals. Perhaps if we stressed more repentance, we would see less tarring in the altar.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Dr. James Dobson may be a "good man" and have good things to say, but he isn't serving God in truth. Goodness doesn't equate salvation. Again...lifestyle is not a stand alone proof of Holy Ghost infilling. Tongues are initial and always present...godliness and TRUTH follows. Scripture is pretty clear that Cornelius was NOT saved before his Holy Ghost infilling, regardless of what character traits he possessed.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

John 3:8's sound is glossolalia.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Please explain what you believe(or your speculation) to be the GODLINESS and TRUTH that followed Cornelius after he was Spirit filled. (obviously after he was in lightened that the good news of the cross was for Gentiles as well). I am not meaning this as challenging you, just wanting to hear your thoughts.



He responded to you because you said one could find tongues in John 3. It does not say tongues in John 3, you put it there based upon your under/interpretation of other scriptures being what Jesus meant when he talked about the sound of the “wind impacting”.

.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Good post. I appreciate your response.
Do you believe that Holy Ghost filled “tongue talkers” produce more abundant fruit, have a better understanding of holiness as another poster just posted, than those that are not Spirit filled evidenced by speaking in tongues?

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Some people have been in churchanity way too long.
They came in got water baptized, spoke a little ho MO Mashonda. Then later on in their journey thought what they once received wasn’t even real. How long you’ve been in church, and now you are asking questions on the internet? Pastor World Wide Web has some group of saints. Television is nothing compared to the Internet. :lol

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Thank you for posting this. You are a great example of comparison between the fruits of those that have not received the spirit evidenced speaking in tongue’s, and those that have.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

bwaaa haaa that's the funniest post on AFF!!!!

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Sometimes. Some seem to have a better grasp of inward holiness, but lack a bit on externals, however there are many who have a solid grasp of the external, but are glaring on their lack of internal holiness. The best to have is the reality of both, but this is where we must allow brethren to grow in grace.

Neither side should be boasting over the other as both may be deficient in the eyes of God. But for this reason we are granted the grace of God, that in our failings to live by His perfect standard, we are not consumed in wrath. Brethren who are lax on some external standards should be seeking to learn from their brethren with the greater, and those deficient in internal holiness should seek knowledge from those whith greater, and thus both sides grow continually in perfection and fellowship.

However, we should not be looking for truth in those who are unsaved. They may have good solid teachings on aspects of the Christian life, but they will be out of balance and missing important truths because they have not the Spirit of Truth, but rather they follow the idolatrous traditions of men, which will never save.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

I'm not putting anything there other than what Jesus said directly. "Sound" is not the swish of the wind of the clapping of the thunder. It's uttered words. Completely out of place in the natural context, but he wasn't referring to the natural context. He was referring to those that are born of the Spirit. They will be as the wind, with "uttered words" following them.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Joe how you coming along with those 22 inch arms? :laffatu

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

You are correct, but that is because you had teaching on this subject. Others just attended a church, got some sort of experience, after the years they end up here doubting what little they got in the first place. Jesus said the wind (Spirit) goes where it wants and you hear the sound. The English word sound is interpreted from the Greek word φωνὴν. Which is interpreted voice in these passages Matthew 12:19, Mark 15:37, Luke 3:22, Luke 9:36, Luke 11:27, Luke 17:13, John 3:29, John 5:37, John 10:4, John 10:5, Acts 2:14, Acts 4:24, Acts 9:4, Acts 12:14, Acts 14:11, Acts 22:9, Acts 22:14, Acts 22:22, Acts 26:14, Galatians 4:20, 2 Peter 1:18, Revelation 1:10, Revelation 1:12, Revelation 5:11, Revelation 6:6-7, Revelation 9:13, Revelation 10:4, Revelation 12:10, Revelation 14:2, Revelation 18:4, Revelation 19:1, and Revelation 19:6. Jesus is relaying in the poetic language of a prophet that you will hear the voice of the Holy Ghost in EVERYONE born of the Spirit.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Sadly some people here are fruits with a spirit. :heeheehee

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

20'' but not getting them to budge!

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Based on my aging memory :), one could argue that John never wrote or mentioned or referred to glosslalia at all.

But I could be wrong.

I see no indicators in Jn. 3:8 that insist that "sound" refers specifically to any unique thing at all, let alone words.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Why oh why won't AFF add a like button?

Man, we ought to picket or something.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Gluten. Stop it, totally.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

That's a great possibility. :)

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Like buttons are for Facebook

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Evang.Benincasa, you mean to tell me there are spirited fruit in our forum?

I am shocked!! Shocked I tell you!!

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Just reading the opening of the thread...

Interesting questions and discussion. I’ll share my thoughts a bit later... But, I would like to ask a few questions as well... (sorry James Glen!)

1. Are there some reading here that believe only Oneness Pentecostals are (or have ever been for that matter) in the body of Christ?

2. Do you believe there are those who, though not in the body of Christ, are given Eternal Life by any other means. (For this question, let’s exclude the Old Testament contingency and infants/children etc.. Thanks!)

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Early Oneness Pentecostals were shy about this topic.

Haywood never had a policy or statement about this issue.

But, Morse and Bartleman had no problem ministering along with trinitarians.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Well, thank Jesus that they are as much examples as Joel Olsteen and Benny Hinn.

The example should be book, chapter, and verse.

Makes sense? Of course, because when reading about these guys some weren’t clear on soteriology. Let alone anything else.

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Let’s make it way easier, and forget the label.

Can one be in the Body of Christ without the correct soteriology and theology.

Does it matter if Jesus is God, or a god, or not God at all.

Is baptism in titles, Jesus name, or no name matter.

Infilling with tongues, no tongues matter.

United States Churchanity spread throughout the world as opinions. Pilate’s words of what is truth hasn’t changed. Because the whole head is sick, and therefore the body is in intensive care. The road is narrow for a reason, the gate is tight for a reason. Because only few will ever find it. Churchanity wants everyone and everything to come along. No one is left out, the way is broad and the gate is open like a huge airport hanger. In this way, many will enter in.
Edward Bernays would be proud. :lol

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

#1 I believe that anyone who has repented of their sins, baptized in the name of Jesus, and received the Holy Ghost are in the body. So while in our modern history, we are referred to as "Oneness Pentecostals", I believe that Christ has always had a church.

#2 Currently there is no salvation outside of Acts 2:38, which is the only response to the Gospel

Re: Tongues- A sign or THE sign Of Spirit Infillin
 

Thank you for answering!