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Couldn't someone say that these pictures and testimonies were isolated incidents and didn't represent a "true sample" of today's "Holiness Standards"? Possibly these woman cut their hair before the "revelation" of 1 Corinthians 11? |
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Shocking that your influence with your daughter hasn't gone anywhere. Maybe it speaks to your concern not to be pushy. |
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There were many "revelations" that were given in the mid Twentieth Century. These "revelations" and innovations were sold to a younger generations as "The Old Paths" and such. The real history of the development of our "holiness standards" however is quite a bit different. My wife's mother used to cut her hair. She cut my wife's older sisters hair regularly too. Then a "revelation" came along and my wife has never cut her hair even once in her entire life, same thing with my daughter. If you ask them why they'll make a weak appeal to 1 Corinthians 11, but a stronger appeal to "tradition." But just what kind of tradition is this that was introduced some time in the 1950's after the third sister was born and before the fourth? It's an innovation. Plain and simple. So, let's be plain about that. Uncut hair on women is not some "old path" or "old timey tradition." It's as new as space rockets and satellites. |
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I was accepted for reinstatement, even with my "facial hair," but I did not pursue it further than that. Also, with the many changes that have been made over the last 20 years or so I probably wouldn't make a comfortable fit. And notice: I haven't changed my doctrine. I still preach the same things I preached as a card carrying UPC man. The UPCI changed it's doctrine. So much for sticking to "the old paths." |
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Justin, what we find is two waves crashing at the merger when it came to how to view and teach holiness.
Initially, the PCI manual's verbiage on Holiness was adapted at the merger. This is how it read in the PCI manual and the UPCI manual at the merger: http://beforeyousignit.com/articles1952.jpg (PCI manual, circa early 1940's) Notice they simply reiterated scripture with little commentary .... and this inferentially allows an indivual pastor to interpret and apply bible-based holiness as they deemed in their local congregations. Quite frankly we cannot call these "revelations" new ... as we can find many who held dress standards before 1948 ... especially as taught and documented by some of the radicals of the pre-cursor Holiness movements. These arguments regarding Holiness were very much part of the theological discussions among Methodists and others with Wesleyan roots in the 1800's and the turn of the century. What we dont find .... is a pre-defined laundry list in the Articles Faith until nearly a decade after the merger .... until the resolution process was properly utilized and appeals by some who wanted "stronger" language to apply to all across the fellowship were institutie .... in 1954 an amendment was added... The Article of Holiness was amended to its present day language. What is nefarious ... I believe .... is the attempt to whitewash, sanitize, censor and present the facts as if we were lockstep in what is the majority view today. We find leadership of the pioneering OP Apostolic generation to hold markedly distinct views on Holiness and the New Birth ... This is more about the will of a few or even a majority imposed on the rest of the organization ... With direct democracy, comes as our founding fathers wrote about in the Federalist papers, the tyranny of the majority. Tyranny of the majority leads to the group dynamic of peer pressure and ostracization. |
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I believe it was was one of those sermon links on another thread where the preacher tried to make the case: scripture gives us timeless principle, church leadership is responsible for making timely application.
This is how they explain positions as follows: Alcohol abstinence Cigarette smoking Night Club/Dance Club attendance for some: Movie Theaters Movies Television Sleeve length Dress length Dresses over pants Mixed "Bathing" etc.... With the idea of Pastoral Authority being what it is for most OP's, this is an easy answer for them. |
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That doesn't discount the fact that, as you've stated, there were many from the Wesleyan Holiness movement that brought along their ideas. And another important innovation has been the idea that "There Has Always Been an 'Acts 2:38' Church Throughout History." The pioneers all felt that they were resurrecting truths that had been lost for centuries and none of them claimed to have been perpetuating an apostolic succession. This greatly influenced the development of the "Light Doctrine" and its corollaries. When the "Light Doctrine" was abandoned as "compromise" it became necessary to invent an alternate reality where the "Three Step" program had always been heralded. |
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I'm sure group dynamics would still lead to certain districts ... and regions holding a view but returning to the Holiness article at the merger would disengage some of the conflict and return to the original intent and glue of the merger to not contend to the disunity of the brethren, imo. |
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The WPF schism would not have happened ... the likes of LB, the Godairs, and others either would have left in trickles earlier ... or would have joined orgs with TV prohibitions ...
But as it stands ... their gripe along legal grounds has merit when one looks at the inconsistency of the "TV for ministry" allowance compared to today's Holiness article and stance against TV. The changing of the Holiness article ... has self-sabotaged the org and has rooted out some good people while making others feel disgruntled to see it not properly enforced. The original vagueness was wise, imo, and 100% bible-based. |
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I agree it was wise and Bible-based.
I'm just looking at what would be different. You hit a on a few points yourself. If there was still an open fellowship of PCI and PAJC, and tolerance on differences of holiness standards (including hair), I would suspect that PAJC crowd would lose their voice. From talking with so many, it seems there are hundreds of men that just play the game, talk the talk, though in their heart of hearts they are nothing close to PAJC in doctrine. It amazes me. Wisdom or dishonesty? I guess it depends on who you ask. |
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Making men to lie and promote disunity on the basis of letter of the law but not the Word of God. It is the reason that in 15 years the net growth of the UPCI has stagnated ... and why there is a revolving door whle losing pillars with seasoned experience. Returning to their roots would allow men to preach their conscience while staying in fellowship with like-minded men ... allowing the fellowship we all love to flourish. |
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And makes our friends, brethren and family members liars, imo. |
Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
Justin hypocrisy is a claim to righteousness, a boastful slapping of the chest, all the while a heart that is insincere and far from God. I wouldn't quite make the stretch of them handling the situation the way they do to "hypocrisy." But close :)
There's so many men that continue to sign the affirmation statement that it befuddles me. I have had conversations with them. Some of these have held "high positions" -- some high enough rank in the UPC fellowship that it would blow your mind. If you asked them if Billy Graham would be in heaven, they wouldn't hesitate to tell you "yes." But back @ conference, you wouldn't ever know it by the rhetoric they use. |
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The nostalgia of being part of the UPCI is no longer as strong as the Missio Deo. I guess if you've been in the UPCI for decades, it would make sense to have the "change from the inside" mentality. But the newer and younger generations don't want to fight the way they've seen their elders fight. They don't want to argue for decades over issues like television, when they have such a greater mission to serve. Dan hit it on the head: majoring in the minors. |
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(World English Bible) Matt 7:37: But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No.' Whatever is more than these is of the evil one |
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Thats where you are wrong. Who's your pastor? Because EVERYTHING that we TEACH and PREACH should be BIBLICAL. I'm not for adding to or taking away. When we refer to the old path, we are referring to the 1st Century church. Yes there were standards. Yes there were guidelines. My question is this. (?) You tell me what you have a problem with and If its something we preach or teach then we should have scripture for it. Fire away! |
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Then there is the social stigma of "leaving Holiness"!
Changing from within would be best served by appealing to a return to our roots ... our Apostolic Identity accurately portrayed. |
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Throwing out frivilous pics dont discredit scripture. Keep in ming brother.... Somethings we do for JESUS sake; But, somethings we do for the Gospels sake. |
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Back to your other topics. What "revelation of scripture" became more evident? Are you sure we didn't get more screwed up as many well-intentioned movements have since come and gone?Are you saying the pioneers didn't understand anything about the Bible until they had the Azusa experience?? We don't need pics to discredit all of the hardline, distorted interpretations of things like make-up, jewlery, uncut hair, etc. These "revelations" were in likely the best of intentions, but poorly exegeted. And you must admit that the whole "ancient landmark" comment, when preached, is often looking back to the 1900s, not Pentecost. It sort helps one realize these "ancient landmarks" are quite modern. |
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Hi there DeuteronomyCh8. Welcome to AFF. I don't think I have seen a new poster with your raw zeal for what he believes to be true sicne the debut of the poster called Caston Smith. We do hope you enjoy your visit here. |
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Some of those are more community mores than anything else (chaperones, for example). Yes, you won't find scripture speaking to any of those. But OP's will claim that's the ministries duty -- to make that modern-day application. |
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And yes....STANDARD is in the BIBLE. Standard = An acknowledged measure of comparison for quantitative or qualitative value; a criterion. Jeffrey, I dont have a problem with our doctrine or standards....so you pick the subject and we will continue. |
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I just deleted my original because I liked the line of thought this was going. But I would be interested in hearing scripture.
Opened toed shoes really gets me. What do they think the Disciples wore? Sandals don't generally cover the entire foot to the ankle, after all... |
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I wouldn't kind seeing DuetCh8 give us scripture that teaches a new testament women that she can not wear a bifurcated garment.
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Problem is, what ship to jump to? UPC isn't the only one that is "sinking"... Many denominations are struggling with issues of worship, music, acceptance... just in an entirely different way that OP.
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