Apostolic Friends Forum

Apostolic Friends Forum (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/index.php)
-   The D.A.'s Office (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=65)
-   -   DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity, (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=28450)

Justin 01-19-2010 09:57 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867064)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867078)
The Grays, Apostolic missionaries to Japan

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-...32_5358611.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867079)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867080)
WAS WONDERING WHEN WE RETURN TO THE OLD LANDMARKS?

"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years." ---

Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss)

Dan,

Couldn't someone say that these pictures and testimonies were isolated incidents and didn't represent a "true sample" of today's "Holiness Standards"?

Possibly these woman cut their hair before the "revelation" of 1 Corinthians 11?

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 10:02 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John Atkinson (Post 867175)
My only observation is this:
If someone is in the UPCI and they don't like it they can vote with their feet.

If someone is not in the UPCI what does it matter? If they want to do the whole "Apostolic Identity" thing ... so what? It is their org, so they can. Doesn't bother me none as I am not in the club.

It's not a matter of being "bothered." It's a matter of discussion among other Apostolics about faulty interpretations of scripture, and damaging mission statements for the church.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 10:03 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother David (Post 867183)
My own family members and my children are deeply influenced by what the UPC says and does. A couple of years back I brought up the whole "Holy Magic Hair" thing with my daughter.

"What's that?" she asked.

I explained the gist of the idea behind HMH and she shocked me by responding, "But that's what I believe."

No way! But, there it was in my own home. It is important that we stand up to the historical revisionism, the false doctrine and the "gospel" that is often preached that excludes Calvary and the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

My daughter was used by "headquarters" recently in one of their "Apostolic Identity" promotions. I was troubled by the idea going in. It was part of the Youth Dept's scheme to overcome the silly accusations that followed in the wake of the Youth Congress in 2007.

Can you imagine? With my track record, my kids are still the paradigm of "Apostolic Identity?"

I don't really have a problem with it and my daughter had a great time. But I am still going to add my two cent's worth and reach out to the org to maintain some semblance of balance.

Are you still UPCI?
Shocking that your influence with your daughter hasn't gone anywhere. Maybe it speaks to your concern not to be pushy.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 10:05 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brother david (Post 867212)

we are not doing the fellowship nor the church any service by always ducking our heads and never asking the tough questions. For the oneness movement to thrive we need to have a body of powerful individuals. The current status quo in so many areas where we see leadership wracked by poor esteem issues which they then take out on a silent and submissive flock will only lead to our demise.

great!

pelathais 01-19-2010 10:05 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin (Post 867240)
Dan,

Couldn't someone say that these pictures and testimonies were isolated incidents and didn't represent a "true sample" of today's "Holiness Standards"?

Possibly these woman cut their hair before the "revelation" of 1 Corinthians 11?

Instead of asking Dan, ask these folks or their families.

There were many "revelations" that were given in the mid Twentieth Century. These "revelations" and innovations were sold to a younger generations as "The Old Paths" and such. The real history of the development of our "holiness standards" however is quite a bit different.

My wife's mother used to cut her hair. She cut my wife's older sisters hair regularly too. Then a "revelation" came along and my wife has never cut her hair even once in her entire life, same thing with my daughter.

If you ask them why they'll make a weak appeal to 1 Corinthians 11, but a stronger appeal to "tradition."

But just what kind of tradition is this that was introduced some time in the 1950's after the third sister was born and before the fourth? It's an innovation. Plain and simple.

So, let's be plain about that. Uncut hair on women is not some "old path" or "old timey tradition." It's as new as space rockets and satellites.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 10:06 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin (Post 867240)
Dan,

Couldn't someone say that these pictures and testimonies were isolated incidents and didn't represent a "true sample" of today's "Holiness Standards"?

Possibly these woman cut their hair before the "revelation" of 1 Corinthians 11?

Justin, is that true?

pelathais 01-19-2010 10:13 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867245)
Are you still UPCI?
Shocking that your influence with your daughter hasn't gone anywhere. Maybe it speaks to your concern not to be pushy.

I'm not UPCI, technically. I turned in my card back in the spring/late winter of 1998. As I've testified on here before, a preacher later made a false accusation against me from the pulpit in front of my children. I took it straight to the UPC District Board and pretty much demanded a review.

I was accepted for reinstatement, even with my "facial hair," but I did not pursue it further than that. Also, with the many changes that have been made over the last 20 years or so I probably wouldn't make a comfortable fit.

And notice: I haven't changed my doctrine. I still preach the same things I preached as a card carrying UPC man. The UPCI changed it's doctrine. So much for sticking to "the old paths."

Justin 01-19-2010 10:22 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867248)
Justin, is that true?

I was posing the question. I have no idea if it's true. But this would be a response I would expect to hear from those who uphold the current "Holiness Standards".

rgcraig 01-19-2010 10:24 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin (Post 867252)
I was posing the question. I have no idea if it's true. But this would be a response I would expect to hear from those who uphold the current "Holiness Standards".

Read the first sentence:


Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867079)


DAII 01-19-2010 11:01 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Justin, what we find is two waves crashing at the merger when it came to how to view and teach holiness.

Initially, the PCI manual's verbiage on Holiness was adapted at the merger.

This is how it read in the PCI manual and the UPCI manual at the merger:

http://beforeyousignit.com/articles1952.jpg (PCI manual, circa early 1940's)

Notice they simply reiterated scripture with little commentary .... and this inferentially allows an indivual pastor to interpret and apply bible-based holiness as they deemed in their local congregations.

Quite frankly we cannot call these "revelations" new ... as we can find many who held dress standards before 1948 ... especially as taught and documented by some of the radicals of the pre-cursor Holiness movements.

These arguments regarding Holiness were very much part of the theological discussions among Methodists and others with Wesleyan roots in the 1800's and the turn of the century.

What we dont find .... is a pre-defined laundry list in the Articles Faith until nearly a decade after the merger .... until the resolution process was properly utilized and appeals by some who wanted "stronger" language to apply to all across the fellowship were institutie

.... in 1954 an amendment was added...

The Article of Holiness was amended to its present day language.

What is nefarious ... I believe .... is the attempt to whitewash, sanitize, censor and present the facts as if we were lockstep in what is the majority view today.

We find leadership of the pioneering OP Apostolic generation to hold markedly distinct views on Holiness and the New Birth ...

This is more about the will of a few or even a majority imposed on the rest of the organization ...

With direct democracy, comes as our founding fathers wrote about in the Federalist papers, the tyranny of the majority.

Tyranny of the majority leads to the group dynamic of peer pressure and ostracization.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 11:09 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
I believe it was was one of those sermon links on another thread where the preacher tried to make the case: scripture gives us timeless principle, church leadership is responsible for making timely application.

This is how they explain positions as follows:

Alcohol abstinence
Cigarette smoking
Night Club/Dance Club attendance

for some:
Movie Theaters
Movies
Television
Sleeve length
Dress length
Dresses over pants
Mixed "Bathing"


etc....

With the idea of Pastoral Authority being what it is for most OP's, this is an easy answer for them.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 11:11 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867279)
Justin, what we find is two waves crashing at the merger when it came to how to view and teach holiness.

Initially, the PCI manual's verbiage on Holiness was adapted at the merger.

This is how it read in the PCI manual and the UPCI manual at the merger:

http://beforeyousignit.com/articles1952.jpg

Notice they simply reiterated scripture with little commentary .... and this inferentially allows an indivual pastor to interpret and apply bible-based holiness as they deemed in their local congregations.

Quite frankly we cannot call these "revelations" new ... as we can find many who held dress standards before 1948 ... especially as taught and documented by some of the radicals of the pre-cursor Holiness movements.

These arguments regarding Holiness were very much part of the theological discussions among Methodists and others with Wesleyan roots in the 1800's and the turn of the century.

What we dont find .... is a pre-defined laundry list in the Articles Faith until nearly a decade after the merger .... until the resolution process was properly utilized and appeals by some who wanted "stronger" language to apply to all across the fellowship were institutie

.... in 1954 an amendment was added...

The Article of Holiness was amended to its present day language.

What is nefarious ... I believe .... is the attempt to whitewash and present the facts as if we were lockstep in what is the majority view today.

We find leadership of the pioneering OP Apostolic generation to hold markedly distinct views on Holiness and the New Birth ...

This is more about the will of a few or even a majority imposed on the rest of the organization ...

With direct democracy, comes as our founding fathers wrote about in the Federalist papers, the tyranny of the majority.

Maybe not, but if each pastor made application that he felt was best, in effect, we'd have almost the same thing, with a half cup of tolerance and a half teaspoon of graciousness. Not much would be different.

pelathais 01-19-2010 11:15 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867279)
Justin, what we find is two waves crashing at the merger when it came to how to view and teach holiness.

Initially, the PCI manual's verbiage on Holiness was adapted at the merger.

This is how it read in the PCI manual and the UPCI manual at the merger:

http://beforeyousignit.com/articles1952.jpg (PCI manual, circa early 1940's)

Notice they simply reiterated scripture with little commentary .... and this inferentially allows an indivual pastor to interpret and apply bible-based holiness as they deemed in their local congregations.

Quite frankly we cannot call these "revelations" new ... as we can find many who held dress standards before 1948 ... especially as taught and documented by some of the radicals of the pre-cursor Holiness movements.

These arguments regarding Holiness were very much part of the theological discussions among Methodists and others with Wesleyan roots in the 1800's and the turn of the century.

What we dont find .... is a pre-defined laundry list in the Articles Faith until nearly a decade after the merger .... until the resolution process was properly utilized and appeals by some who wanted "stronger" language to apply to all across the fellowship were institutie

.... in 1954 an amendment was added...

The Article of Holiness was amended to its present day language.

What is nefarious ... I believe .... is the attempt to whitewash and present the facts as if we were lockstep in what is the majority view today.

We find leadership of the pioneering OP Apostolic generation to hold markedly distinct views on Holiness and the New Birth ...

This is more about the will of a few or even a majority imposed on the rest of the organization ...

With direct democracy, comes as our founding fathers wrote about in the Federalist papers, the tyranny of the majority.

From the experience of my family it is a "new" thing and looking at how the "dress code standards" were introduced and promulgated among OPs the photographic evidence does show it to have been an innovation across the movement.

That doesn't discount the fact that, as you've stated, there were many from the Wesleyan Holiness movement that brought along their ideas.

And another important innovation has been the idea that "There Has Always Been an 'Acts 2:38' Church Throughout History." The pioneers all felt that they were resurrecting truths that had been lost for centuries and none of them claimed to have been perpetuating an apostolic succession. This greatly influenced the development of the "Light Doctrine" and its corollaries. When the "Light Doctrine" was abandoned as "compromise" it became necessary to invent an alternate reality where the "Three Step" program had always been heralded.

DAII 01-19-2010 11:18 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867286)
Maybe not, but if each pastor made application that he felt was best, in effect, we'd have almost the same thing, with a half cup of tolerance and a half teaspoon of graciousness. Not much would be different.

But we would not have the Westberg resolution ... and other appeals to "legality" and unanimous across the board affirmations that are still signed hypocritically.

I'm sure group dynamics would still lead to certain districts ... and regions holding a view but returning to the Holiness article at the merger would disengage some of the conflict and return to the original intent and glue of the merger to not contend to the disunity of the brethren, imo.

DAII 01-19-2010 11:22 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
The WPF schism would not have happened ... the likes of LB, the Godairs, and others either would have left in trickles earlier ... or would have joined orgs with TV prohibitions ...

But as it stands ... their gripe along legal grounds has merit when one looks at the inconsistency of the "TV for ministry" allowance compared to today's Holiness article and stance against TV.

The changing of the Holiness article ... has self-sabotaged the org and has rooted out some good people while making others feel disgruntled to see it not properly enforced.

The original vagueness was wise, imo, and 100% bible-based.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 11:26 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
I agree it was wise and Bible-based.

I'm just looking at what would be different. You hit a on a few points yourself.

If there was still an open fellowship of PCI and PAJC, and tolerance on differences of holiness standards (including hair), I would suspect that PAJC crowd would lose their voice. From talking with so many, it seems there are hundreds of men that just play the game, talk the talk, though in their heart of hearts they are nothing close to PAJC in doctrine. It amazes me. Wisdom or dishonesty? I guess it depends on who you ask.

DAII 01-19-2010 11:30 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867304)
I agree it was wise and Bible-based.

I'm just looking at what would be different. You hit a on a few points yourself.

If there was still an open fellowship of PCI and PAJC, and tolerance on differences of holiness standards (including hair), I would suspect that PAJC crowd would lose their voice. From talking with so many, it seems there are hundreds of men that just play the game, talk the talk, though in their heart of hearts they are nothing close to PAJC in doctrine. It amazes me. Wisdom or dishonesty? I guess it depends on who you ask.

A culture of disfellowship has been nutured through the years since many have fed a blood-thirsty focus on the minors rather than the majors, imo.

Making men to lie and promote disunity on the basis of letter of the law but not the Word of God.

It is the reason that in 15 years the net growth of the UPCI has stagnated ... and why there is a revolving door whle losing pillars with seasoned experience.

Returning to their roots would allow men to preach their conscience while staying in fellowship with like-minded men ... allowing the fellowship we all love to flourish.

Justin 01-19-2010 11:32 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867304)
I agree it was wise and Bible-based.

I'm just looking at what would be different. You hit a on a few points yourself.

If there was still an open fellowship of PCI and PAJC, and tolerance on differences of holiness standards (including hair), I would suspect that PAJC crowd would lose their voice. From talking with so many, it seems there are hundreds of men that just play the game, talk the talk, though in their heart of hearts they are nothing close to PAJC in doctrine. It amazes me. Wisdom or dishonesty? I guess it depends on who you ask.

Isn't hypocrisy a sin? I thought it was.

DAII 01-19-2010 11:34 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin (Post 867310)
Isn't hypocrisy a sin? I thought it was.

It is ... and I can name a handful of men in full compliance of today's Holiness article. Some of them just left.

And makes our friends, brethren and family members liars, imo.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 11:37 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Justin hypocrisy is a claim to righteousness, a boastful slapping of the chest, all the while a heart that is insincere and far from God. I wouldn't quite make the stretch of them handling the situation the way they do to "hypocrisy." But close :)

There's so many men that continue to sign the affirmation statement that it befuddles me. I have had conversations with them. Some of these have held "high positions" -- some high enough rank in the UPC fellowship that it would blow your mind. If you asked them if Billy Graham would be in heaven, they wouldn't hesitate to tell you "yes." But back @ conference, you wouldn't ever know it by the rhetoric they use.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 11:38 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867313)
It is ... and I can name a handful of men in full compliance of today's Holiness article. Some of them just left.

And makes our friends, brethren and family members liars, imo.

And the WOTS is that many are lining up to leave with them.

The nostalgia of being part of the UPCI is no longer as strong as the Missio Deo.

I guess if you've been in the UPCI for decades, it would make sense to have the "change from the inside" mentality. But the newer and younger generations don't want to fight the way they've seen their elders fight. They don't want to argue for decades over issues like television, when they have such a greater mission to serve. Dan hit it on the head: majoring in the minors.

Justin 01-19-2010 11:40 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867316)
Justin hypocrisy is a claim to righteousness, a boastful slapping of the chest, all the while a heart that is insincere and far from God. I wouldn't quite make the stretch of them handling the situation the way they do to "hypocrisy." But close :)

There's so many men that continue to sign the affirmation statement that it befuddles me. I have had conversations with them. Some of these have held "high positions" -- some high enough rank in the UPC fellowship that it would blow your mind. If you asked them if Billy Graham would be in heaven, they wouldn't hesitate to tell you "yes." But back @ conference, you wouldn't ever know it by the rhetoric they use.

Exactly:

(World English Bible)
Matt 7:37: But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes' and your 'No' be 'No.' Whatever is more than these is of the evil one

DeuteronomyCh8 01-19-2010 11:46 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother David (Post 867171)
It proves that our forebears in the Apostolic Faith did not have the "holiness standards" that exist in some churches today and that the attempt by some to enforce some sort of ad hoc "Apostolic Identity" based upon those "standards" has no historical basis in fact.

In other words, we're all being asked to accept some things that were just invented in the post WW2 years at the cost of "Apostolic Unity" and at the cost of the Scripture.


Thats where you are wrong. Who's your pastor? Because EVERYTHING that we TEACH and PREACH should be BIBLICAL. I'm not for adding to or taking away. When we refer to the old path, we are referring to the 1st Century church. Yes there were standards. Yes there were guidelines.

My question is this. (?) You tell me what you have a problem with and If its something we preach or teach then we should have scripture for it. Fire away!

DAII 01-19-2010 11:46 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Then there is the social stigma of "leaving Holiness"!

Changing from within would be best served by appealing to a return to our roots ... our Apostolic Identity accurately portrayed.

DeuteronomyCh8 01-19-2010 11:50 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuteronomyCh8 (Post 867321)
Thats where you are wrong. Who's your pastor? Because EVERYTHING that we TEACH and PREACH should be BIBLICAL. I'm not for adding to or taking away. When we refer to the old path, we are referring to the 1st Century church. Yes there were standards. Yes there were guidelines.

My question is this. (?) You tell me what you have a problem with and If its something we preach or teach then we should have scripture for it. Fire away!

The start of the "oneness" movement in the early 1900's was a great step. But as time went on the revelation of scripture became more evident. Its like when you first get the Holy Ghost. Friend you dont start out praying an hour a day. It takes time. You dont understand everything fully at that moment. BUT....as time goes by they began to UNDERSTAND.

Throwing out frivilous pics dont discredit scripture. Keep in ming brother....

Somethings we do for JESUS sake;
But, somethings we do for the Gospels sake.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 12:00 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuteronomyCh8 (Post 867321)
Thats where you are wrong. Who's your pastor? Because EVERYTHING that we TEACH and PREACH should be BIBLICAL. I'm not for adding to or taking away. When we refer to the old path, we are referring to the 1st Century church. Yes there were standards. Yes there were guidelines.

My question is this. (?) You tell me what you have a problem with and If its something we preach or teach then we should have scripture for it. Fire away!

Are you claiming your standards are that of the Early Church (assuming the Early Church used words like "standards")???? Please articulate which ones you share in common. And then cite a source for which supports that fact (either scriptural or historical will do)

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 12:03 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867323)
Then there is the social stigma of "leaving Holiness"!

Changing from within would be best served by appealing to a return to our roots ... our Apostolic Identity accurately portrayed.

DA, those leaving are presented with some harsh realities. First, a rejection of those they've known for years. Second, the ugly reality that many UPC churches that leave deal with many issues not common with your local AOG or Baptist church down the road. It's as if the new-found freedom takes over. Instead of the raw Jesus culture, unfortunately, many turn to license for anything to feed their carnal appetite. They are leaving to fulfill a Jesus appetite, and instead encounter people unsure how to balance themselves without the heavy weights of Old Pentecost on their back. So, many fall. Some, wobble around. Some have permanent crooked backs. Some figure it out and get through it. But make no mistake, all of us are scarred, because we were wired in a such a way that viewed God, the church, the ministry and the world in a certain way that it's hard to undo.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 12:08 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuteronomyCh8 (Post 867327)
The start of the "oneness" movement in the early 1900's was a great step. But as time went on the revelation of scripture became more evident. Its like when you first get the Holy Ghost. Friend you dont start out praying an hour a day. It takes time. You dont understand everything fully at that moment. BUT....as time goes by they began to UNDERSTAND.

Throwing out frivilous pics dont discredit scripture. Keep in ming brother....

Somethings we do for JESUS sake;
But, somethings we do for the Gospels sake.

Do you pray "an hour a day?" I don't even like that sort of admonition. Like it's some test of spirituality. Being a people of prayer doesn't mean "Come forward and make a committment to pray for an hour every day." We turn good things into rituals of our spirituality. Talk about the beauty and power in prayer and let people WANT and CHOOSE to take the time to pray. Prayer is the most humbling of topics, because none of us feel we do it enough. None of us!

Back to your other topics. What "revelation of scripture" became more evident? Are you sure we didn't get more screwed up as many well-intentioned movements have since come and gone?Are you saying the pioneers didn't understand anything about the Bible until they had the Azusa experience??

We don't need pics to discredit all of the hardline, distorted interpretations of things like make-up, jewlery, uncut hair, etc. These "revelations" were in likely the best of intentions, but poorly exegeted.

And you must admit that the whole "ancient landmark" comment, when preached, is often looking back to the 1900s, not Pentecost. It sort helps one realize these "ancient landmarks" are quite modern.

freeatlast 01-19-2010 12:12 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuteronomyCh8 (Post 867321)
Thats where you are wrong. Who's your pastor? Because EVERYTHING that we TEACH and PREACH should be BIBLICAL. I'm not for adding to or taking away. When we refer to the old path, we are referring to the 1st Century church. Yes there were standards. Yes there were guidelines.

My question is this. (?) You tell me what you have a problem with and If its something we preach or teach then we should have scripture for it. Fire away!


Hi there DeuteronomyCh8. Welcome to AFF. I don't think I have seen a new poster with your raw zeal for what he believes to be true sicne the debut of the poster called Caston Smith.

We do hope you enjoy your visit here.

rgcraig 01-19-2010 12:14 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867333)
DA, those leaving are presented with some harsh realities. First, a rejection of those they've known for years. Second, the ugly reality that many UPC churches that leave deal with many issues not common with your local AOG or Baptist church down the road. It's as if the new-found freedom takes over. Instead of the raw Jesus culture, unfortunately, many turn to license for anything to feed their carnal appetite. They are leaving to fulfill a Jesus appetite, and instead encounter people unsure how to balance themselves without the heavy weights of Old Pentecost on their back. So, many fall. Some, wobble around. Some have permanent crooked backs. Some figure it out and get through it. But make no mistake, all of us are scarred, because we were wired in a such a way that viewed God, the church, the ministry and the world in a certain way that it's hard to undo.

So, very true.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 12:15 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by missourimary (Post 867337)
I don't have a "problem" with any, but here are a few standards that I've had taught that I haven't found scripture for yet:
open toed shoes
slits (that don't go above the knee)
chaperones for dating and engaged couples of any age
all movies prohibited (not all are wicked, so don't head to Psalms 101)
no secular music
no alcohol

Now some things are just not expedient, we all know that. But what is expedient may vary from person to person and situation to situation.

Open-toed shoes. That's funny.

Some of those are more community mores than anything else (chaperones, for example). Yes, you won't find scripture speaking to any of those. But OP's will claim that's the ministries duty -- to make that modern-day application.

Jeffrey 01-19-2010 12:16 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 867341)
So, very true.

RG, this is why I understand when some jump ship completely to non-denom orgs, AOG orgs, etc... They want to inject themselves and their families into a culture of people that aren't experimenting, but already have a balanced culture.

DeuteronomyCh8 01-19-2010 12:16 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867331)
Are you claiming your standards are that of the Early Church (assuming the Early Church used words like "standards")???? Please articulate which ones you share in common. And then cite a source for which supports that fact (either scriptural or historical will do)

I would say YES, emphatically. They are shared with the 1st century church. Considering the fact that...well....they (the apostles) wrote the scripture in the 1st century of the church.

And yes....STANDARD is in the BIBLE.

Standard = An acknowledged measure of comparison for quantitative or qualitative value; a criterion.

Jeffrey, I dont have a problem with our doctrine or standards....so you pick the subject and we will continue.

missourimary 01-19-2010 12:18 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
I just deleted my original because I liked the line of thought this was going. But I would be interested in hearing scripture.

Opened toed shoes really gets me. What do they think the Disciples wore? Sandals don't generally cover the entire foot to the ankle, after all...

missourimary 01-19-2010 12:21 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867333)
DA, those leaving are presented with some harsh realities. First, a rejection of those they've known for years. Second, the ugly reality that many UPC churches that leave deal with many issues not common with your local AOG or Baptist church down the road. It's as if the new-found freedom takes over. Instead of the raw Jesus culture, unfortunately, many turn to license for anything to feed their carnal appetite. They are leaving to fulfill a Jesus appetite, and instead encounter people unsure how to balance themselves without the heavy weights of Old Pentecost on their back. So, many fall. Some, wobble around. Some have permanent crooked backs. Some figure it out and get through it. But make no mistake, all of us are scarred, because we were wired in a such a way that viewed God, the church, the ministry and the world in a certain way that it's hard to undo.

That's very true. We could start a thread on this thought that could last decades.

rgcraig 01-19-2010 12:21 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867343)
RG, this is why I understand when some jump ship completely to non-denom orgs, AOG orgs, etc... They want to inject themselves and their families into a culture of people that aren't experimenting, but already have a balanced culture.

So many things to say.

freeatlast 01-19-2010 12:23 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
I wouldn't kind seeing DuetCh8 give us scripture that teaches a new testament women that she can not wear a bifurcated garment.

DeuteronomyCh8 01-19-2010 12:23 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867342)
Open-toed shoes. That's funny.

Some of those are more community mores than anything else (chaperones, for example). Yes, you won't find scripture speaking to any of those. But OP's will claim that's the ministries duty -- to make that modern-day application.

I dont think theres anything wrong with "open toed" shoes. Its not biblical. But the Bible does give authority to the minstry to use their own judgement. That is Biblical. Dont like it....go to another church. If it can be backed up with a Biblical "precept or principal" thats different.

missourimary 01-19-2010 12:23 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Problem is, what ship to jump to? UPC isn't the only one that is "sinking"... Many denominations are struggling with issues of worship, music, acceptance... just in an entirely different way that OP.

DAII 01-19-2010 12:25 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 867333)
But make no mistake, all of us are scarred, because we were wired in a such a way that viewed God, the church, the ministry and the world in a certain way that it's hard to undo.

Sigh ... ain't dat da troof.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.