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-   -   DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity, (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=28450)

pelathais 01-20-2010 05:34 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 867909)
...
And, as far as Benincasa's statement (If it was Benny), that is an extremely broad brush statement "People coming from other countries backslide when they live here". How many people? All of them, what percentage, and what's the measuring stick to determine this?

There are a few families that I know who move back and forth across the border with Mexico. When they are here they are appear to be very much into the "ultra-con" mode. In this area, most of the UPC related Spanish works are also "ultra-con."

When they go back to Mexico it's different. I hardly recognized one sister in a pic - she plucks her eyebrows in Mexico, but not here in the States. Go figure? They all also dress for the warmer climates too - shorts, sleeveless "sun dresses" and just what you'd expect from folks in the larger cities there.

At least from the "ultra-con" mode of thinking, they "backslide" when they go back to Mexico.

DAII 01-20-2010 05:40 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother David (Post 867921)
There are a few families that I know who move back and forth across the border with Mexico. When they are here they are appear to be very much into the "ultra-con" mode. In this area, most of the UPC related Spanish works are also "ultra-con."

When they go back to Mexico it's different. I hardly recognized one sister in a pic - she plucks her eyebrows in Mexico, but not here in the States. Go figure? They all also dress for the warmer climates too - shorts, sleeveless "sun dresses" and just what you'd expect from folks in the larger cities there.

At least from the "ultra-con" mode of thinking, they "backslide" when they go back to Mexico.

Truth be told many of the national works that are no longer UPCI affiliated are more liberal ... but as has be witnessed by many others .... even in org churches overseas many of the standards are relaxed and at times outright ignored.

In the Colombian national work ... trimming of hair is very much accepted.

DAII 01-20-2010 05:51 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Take the most successful offshoot of the United Pentecostal Church International on foreign soil .... The United Pentecostal Church of Colombia ... which consists of a constituency of over 600,000 members ... who pack stadiums full of Apostolic Oneness people in their regional conferences ... consist of about a 1/3 of the ministers as the UPCI and now have works in the States and overseas ....

Their Articles of Faith are translated verbatim from the mother international church ....

What is noticeably missing from their AOF is the Holiness Article ...

http://www.ipuc.org.co/principal/que-creemos.html

Seems they got over the minors ... and when their saints come here they often can't figure out why some don't have TVs, or are so caustic about wearing makeup or don't trim their hair.

Even so many of their women will wear skirts ...

pelathais 01-20-2010 05:57 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867930)
Take the most successful offshoot of the United Pentecostal Church International on foreign soil .... The United Pentecostal Church of Colombia ... which consists of a constituency of over 600,000 members ... who pack stadiums full of Apostolic Oneness people in their regional conferences ... about a 1/3 of the ministers as the UPCI and now have works in the States and overseas ....

Their Articles of Faith are translated verbatim from the mother international church ....

What is noticeably missing from their AOF is the Holiness Article ...

http://www.ipuc.org.co/principal/que-creemos.html

Seems they got over the minors ... and when their saints come here they often can't figure out why some don't have TVs, or are so caustic about wearing makeup or don't trim their hair.

Even so many of their women will wear skirts ...

LOL. The first thing you see on their home page:

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...-IPUC-LOGO.png

TV Inglesia Pentecostal Unida.

We need them here opening up more missions works - and not just for the Spanish speakers, for everybody! I think we all could learn a lot from these brothers.

Apocrypha 01-20-2010 06:03 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 867930)
Take the most successful offshoot of the United Pentecostal Church International on foreign soil .... The United Pentecostal Church of Colombia ... which consists of a constituency of over 600,000 members ... who pack stadiums full of Apostolic Oneness people in their regional conferences ... about a 1/3 of the ministers as the UPCI and now have works in the States and overseas ....

Their Articles of Faith are translated verbatim from the mother international church ....

What is noticeably missing from their AOF is the Holiness Article ...

http://www.ipuc.org.co/principal/que-creemos.html

Seems they got over the minors ... and when their saints come here they often can't figure out why some don't have TVs, or are so caustic about wearing makeup or don't trim their hair.

Even so many of their women will wear skirts ...

Isn't that the "other" UPCI of Columbia.. even though they share the same they split away from the missionaries right? I was told the story a long time ago about Columbia having two UPCI's... the "official" one which is tiny and the "other" that is bigger than the USA church. Correct me if i'm jumbled on that one.

DAII 01-20-2010 06:04 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother David (Post 867934)
LOL. The first thing you see on their home page:

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...-IPUC-LOGO.png

TV Inglesia Pentecostal Unida.

We need them here opening up more missions works - and not just for the Spanish speakers, for everybody! I think we all could learn a lot from these brothers.


During the bulk of my dad's ministry in New York ... many of our most faithful and rooted saints came from Colombia .... and had settled in Jackson Heights ... in Queens, New York ...

Some had heard "The Message" in the 1930's, 1940's through the 1960's in Colombia and when they and their children resettled here ... they were not going to give up their TV sets ... because they now were attending a UPCI church.

TV was a non-issue for us.

DAII 01-20-2010 06:06 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Apocrypha (Post 867939)
Isn't that the "other" UPCI of Columbia.. even though they share the same they split away from the missionaries right? I was told the story a long time ago about Columbia having two UPCI's... the "official" one which is tiny and the "other" that is bigger than the USA church. Correct me if i'm jumbled on that one.

Yes, you are correct ... it was the first national work to go independent ... from the mothership.

There was tremendous revival, persecution and later internal strife that led to this schism in the 60's I believe... Eventually the national work teamed up with the Canadian work headed by Stairs.

Fudge touches on some of this in his book ...

DAII 01-20-2010 07:10 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother David (Post 867934)

We need them here opening up more missions works - and not just for the Spanish speakers, for everybody! I think we all could learn a lot from these brothers.

On their homepage also you will find a video newscast of a missionary family from the city of Cali .... from the Colombian church.... to Haiti that has been displaced by the earthquake ...
and what is left of their church.

http://www.ipuc.org.co/

Pressing-On 01-20-2010 11:40 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 867909)
.

You said your dentist from Burma went to a Charismatic church, was turned off and never went back. And, then I didn't understand your next statement "We see this and wonder if we will go that way". Could you please clarify?

Also, my next question is - why was she turned off? Because the women wore pants? The men had beards? The music was too loud? The people were unfriendly? I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why she was turned off, because there are millions of people who attend Charismatic churches every week who are NOT turned off, so I'm just curious.

I have an appointment at my lawyer's office tomorrow, so I thought I would address this as I won't be around tomorrow.

Certainly, I will clarify. At the outset, I believe you and I can both agree that personal choice and perception is going to be just that - personal choice and perception.

My dentist simply stated that the people who called themselves "Christians" did not show themselves to be such in their private lives. One thing she mentioned was that she was put out by their social drinking. I remember her mentioning some other things, behavior issues, but the drinking is the thing that mainly sticks out in my mind. The conversation was a couple of years ago. She simply wants to attend a more conservative minded church.

Quote:

And, as far as Benincasa's statement (If it was Benny), that is an extremely broad brush statement "People coming from other countries backslide when they live here". How many people? All of them, what percentage, and what's the measuring stick to determine this?
I've heard the same said about the American churches from foreign missionaries. That makes me think that Benincasa's comments have some merit.

Let me post a message I received concerning the youth in this country, as it correlates with Benincasa's comments, IMO.

This is affecting more than the UPCI, which many have said here, or are giving the impression, that the UPCI churches are about the only ones that are stagnant and not growing. I believe that is the gist of this thread. I find that a bit laughable.

Quote:

Church Drop-Out: Overcoming the Youth Exodus
Join us this evening for this free video Simulcast on the Web and the AFR radio network.
01/19/2010

Here's a reminder about an important radio/Internet simulcast coming up tonight on AFR and www.afa.net. It deals with something close to our hearts as parents. In communities all across our land, there's a problem of young people dropping out of church. As a matter of fact, three out of four Christian teens walk away from church after they leave home.

Sincerely,

Tim Wildmon, President
American Family Association
Quote:

I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but these kinds of unfounded statements just bug the daylights out of me!

So, if you could please provide some clarification, I would be MOST appreciative!
I didn't think you were being argumentative. I believe we will both agree that we will find people, in all groups and organizations, that serve God with all their hearts. We will also find some that serve sin with the same fervency. Therefore, we will find no group full of perfection and having no troubles they are having to deal with or are facing.


I'm not sure that I can totally agree with your point here.

Quote:

However, realize that the leadership of any organization, when they make public statements and become the mouthpiece of that organization, will be the topic of discussion, both pro and con. Just like the POTUS is a topic of discussion over American policies, and freedom of speech allows us to cast our vocal votes on a daily basis, the leader of the UPCI, or Southern Baptist convention, or Roman Catholic church is no different.

I think that is what I've seen more than anything on this forum, discussion over issues and policies that either currently affect us, or have affected most of us in the past.

There is a difference, IMO, as politics and the POTUS are involved in ALL of our lives. The Roman Catholic Church is not a part of my life. I still have many relatives who are members. It's not a topic of discussion for us. I can see me referencing the RCC in a discussion, but running down the teachings that I don't agree with, well, that seems a bit pointless as I'm not involved anymore. My mother harps on the RCC and it's teachings. All that means to me is that she hasn't let go and moved on. I get tired of listening to it. I try to remind her that I learned to love Jesus in the RCC, but she will have none of that. She just wants to point to all it's faults. Some of the conversations here remind me of my mother. LOL!

I also don't agree with you that no one is saying, "You should all leave the UPCI, they teach the doctrine of devils". They may not use that exact terminology, but it is certainly implied, IMMHO.

We can certainly agree on this comment you made.
Quote:

As Mo Mary said, you should stay exactly where you feel God has placed you.
Anyway, I guess I sit here curious as God is telling me to stay and others keep putting it down. It's just very curious.

Michael Phelps 01-21-2010 06:06 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 868032)
I have an appointment at my lawyer's office tomorrow, so I thought I would address this as I won't be around tomorrow.

Certainly, I will clarify. At the outset, I believe you and I can both agree that personal choice and perception is going to be just that - personal choice and perception.

My dentist simply stated that the people who called themselves "Christians" did not show themselves to be such in their private lives. One thing she mentioned was that she was put out by their social drinking. I remember her mentioning some other things, behavior issues, but the drinking is the thing that mainly sticks out in my mind. The conversation was a couple of years ago. She simply wants to attend a more conservative minded church.



I've heard the same said about the American churches from foreign missionaries. That makes me think that Benincasa's comments have some merit.

Let me post a message I received concerning the youth in this country, as it correlates with Benincasa's comments, IMO.

This is affecting more than the UPCI, which many have said here, or are giving the impression, that the UPCI churches are about the only ones that are stagnant and not growing. I believe that is the gist of this thread. I find that a bit laughable.





I didn't think you were being argumentative. I believe we will both agree that we will find people, in all groups and organizations, that serve God with all their hearts. We will also find some that serve sin with the same fervency. Therefore, we will find no group full of perfection and having no troubles they are having to deal with or are facing.


I'm not sure that I can totally agree with your point here.




There is a difference, IMO, as politics and the POTUS are involved in ALL of our lives. The Roman Catholic Church is not a part of my life. I still have many relatives who are members. It's not a topic of discussion for us. I can see me referencing the RCC in a discussion, but running down the teachings that I don't agree with, well, that seems a bit pointless as I'm not involved anymore. My mother harps on the RCC and it's teachings. All that means to me is that she hasn't let go and moved on. I get tired of listening to it. I try to remind her that I learned to love Jesus in the RCC, but she will have none of that. She just wants to point to all it's faults. Some of the conversations here remind me of my mother. LOL!

I also don't agree with you that no one is saying, "You should all leave the UPCI, they teach the doctrine of devils". They may not use that exact terminology, but it is certainly implied, IMMHO.

We can certainly agree on this comment you made.


Anyway, I guess I sit here curious as God is telling me to stay and others keep putting it down. It's just very curious.

Thanks for the clarification, PO. And, I can see how your dentist friend would be discouraged by the social drinking in a church, I've always found that to be a bit of an incongruence, but then again, I'm thinking of things from my conservative point of reference. Either way, I wouldn't disagree with her assessment based on that issue.

And, you are right, the same people exist in our world, whether they are Apostolic, Charismatic, Baptist, Catholic, etc - there are some committed, and some not so much. We should not judge any group on the actions of a few, but unfortunately, we do, and that's what makes the old "This group is good because Bro. Bob is good, or this group is bad because Bro. Jim is bad" argument null and void. We can all find extreme examples in each group to prove our point. I suppose that is why I'm so sensitive to broad brush statements, and I appreciate the healthy discussion.

I find it interesting that, as your article references, many, if not most, organized churches are experiencing diminishing attendance. I've noticed on television lately, there are a series of commercials entitled "Catholics Come Home" and they feature people who tell of their experiences and reasons for leaving the Catholic church, and how miserable they were, and how glad they are that they are back. Lets me know that it's not just the Protestant movement that is feeling the downturn.

Also, to the comment about people backsliding in America, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it has not as much to do with the power in the churches as it has to do with the prosperity in the nation. If these folks come from countries that have no professional sports, no leisure activities, and no money to attend them even if they existed, it could well be a contributing factor when they come to a country with 500 channels on basic cable, more to do OUTSIDE the church that inside the church, and money with which to indulge these pleasures. Just a thought.

And, I haven't been around here very much lately, so I will concede that maybe I've missed some threads, but at least on this thread, I haven't seen anyone trying to convince anyone to leave the UPCI. I've only seen people discuss the validity of an organizational position. The nastiest posts I've seen on this thread have come from an ultracon, defending the position. And, to be honest, my experience is that there is just as much pressure from those still in the mothership placed on those who have left as the other way around.

Either way, I enjoyed the discussion, thanks!

DAII 01-21-2010 06:28 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 868062)
Thanks for the clarification, PO. And, I can see how your dentist friend would be discouraged by the social drinking in a church, I've always found that to be a bit of an incongruence, but then again, I'm thinking of things from my conservative point of reference. Either way, I wouldn't disagree with her assessment based on that issue.

And, you are right, the same people exist in our world, whether they are Apostolic, Charismatic, Baptist, Catholic, etc - there are some committed, and some not so much. We should not judge any group on the actions of a few, but unfortunately, we do, and that's what makes the old "This group is good because Bro. Bob is good, or this group is bad because Bro. Jim is bad" argument null and void. We can all find extreme examples in each group to prove our point. I suppose that is why I'm so sensitive to broad brush statements, and I appreciate the healthy discussion.

I find it interesting that, as your article references, many, if not most, organized churches are experiencing diminishing attendance. I've noticed on television lately, there are a series of commercials entitled "Catholics Come Home" and they feature people who tell of their experiences and reasons for leaving the Catholic church, and how miserable they were, and how glad they are that they are back. Lets me know that it's not just the Protestant movement that is feeling the downturn.

Also, to the comment about people backsliding in America, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it has not as much to do with the power in the churches as it has to do with the prosperity in the nation. If these folks come from countries that have no professional sports, no leisure activities, and no money to attend them even if they existed, it could well be a contributing factor when they come to a country with 500 channels on basic cable, more to do OUTSIDE the church that inside the church, and money with which to indulge these pleasures. Just a thought.

And, I haven't been around here very much lately, so I will concede that maybe I've missed some threads, but at least on this thread, I haven't seen anyone trying to convince anyone to leave the UPCI. I've only seen people discuss the validity of an organizational position. The nastiest posts I've seen on this thread have come from an ultracon, defending the position. And, to be honest, my experience is that there is just as much pressure from those still in the mothership placed on those who have left as the other way around.

Either way, I enjoyed the discussion, thanks!


Sherri's church, Grace Church ... among "Charismatic" churches that speak against social drinking ....

While Elder Epley thinks wine at communion is fine ... There was a time that biblically .... this breaking of bread and wine was a "social" fellowship event.

Those who find excuses will find excuses for going to any church ... and those seeking to prop up their church or org will often resort to fingerpointing as well.

DAII 01-21-2010 07:06 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
This is the delusion imo, while one comment from our healthcare provider or work colleague that corresponds to our belief makes for good conversation and possibly an opportunity to share our faith ... Or being mesmerized by the incessant drum pounding by leadership that the world wants what we have ... Does not translate into the world wants all we have!

I want world peace and so did Karl Marx. Does that mean I want what the Marxists have? Of course not.

The Pentecostal/ Charismatic movement leads Christianity with unparalleled and explosive growth and still like this they are not flocking to churches that want to change their entire wardrobes (mostly their wives) and sell their TVs using poor hermeneutic and screwy logic as selling points.

They don't want the extremism because they see it for what it is. The numbers bear this out over decades. They do want the Spirit filled experience. They want a Holy God indwelling their hearts. They do want Jesus.

And then they're are some who don't want any part of God while I believe a fraction are drawn to a more exteme and rigid experience in Pentecost because if not they would return to worldliness.

The traditional identity is well established and it's not the reason people are hungering and thirsting for Christ.

DAII 01-21-2010 07:17 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
What the world is looking for as aptly stated by brother in Christ, Mark Bassett, is a Jesus Identity .... not an Artificial Identity!

freeatlast 01-21-2010 08:03 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 867207)
Everytime I see "AI" in refering to "apostolic indentity" it makes me think of a title to a movie that was called AI..........

.......... Artificial Inteligence

Hmmmmmm

jasites 01-21-2010 08:54 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasites (Post 867886)
Good points!

Here's where I'm at:
I think that everyone can agree on the fact the first churches (epistles) without doubt laid down a number of dress codes. Now with that knowledge, do we:
1 - Try to decipher these dress codes and apply them today?
2 - Try to understand the thought process used in creating these dress codes and apply this process to a 21st Century application?

I think the UPCI has done a little bit of both which has yielded some uncanny results (no beards, open-toed shoes, etc.)

But what I don't know that I can live with is the idea that dress standards are to only be a personal conviction. That is just not supported in the Bible and I would venture to say that even the most open-minded member on here would have some issues if their respective platform staff showed up Sun. morning with purple hair, tattoo's, tongue piercing etc. And as result feel that something should be done or said. ...be honest!

Bottom line is:
I think everyone, (Apostolic's, Baptist's, Catholic's etc.) has a line that they feel should be drawn. I don't see eye-to-eye with every issue, but instead of just tearing down and only pointing out the extremists views we have to acknowledge that all of us have some sort of personal standard and begin to consider how we can ever reconcile the differences? I know, I know, standards should not be crammed down throats, and taken out of context! I AGREE MORE THAN YOU KNOW! But having no standards is just unrealistic - every religion, workplace, and business does.

Propose a change! Don't just complain about the obvious. But that's a bigger task than what any of us imagine. In this light, I can't throw that many stones at the UPCI

bump

RandyWayne 01-21-2010 09:06 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Here's where I'm at:
I think that everyone can agree on the fact the first churches (epistles) without doubt laid down a number of dress codes. Now with that knowledge, do we:
1 - Try to decipher these dress codes and apply them today?
2 - Try to understand the thought process used in creating these dress codes and apply this process to a 21st Century application?
I vaguely remember "dress codes" spelled out for Levitical priests, but cannot think of a single one placed on anyone else.

And if dress codes were so important, would they really require "deciphering"?

rgcraig 01-21-2010 09:08 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 868078)
What the world is looking for as aptly stated by brother in Christ, Mark Bassett, is a Jesus Identity .... not an Artificial Identity!

Very true!

I guess that's one reason MB has chosen to leave the mothership.

jasites 01-21-2010 09:26 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 868140)
I vaguely remember "dress codes" spelled out for Levitical priests, but cannot think of a single one placed on anyone else.

And if dress codes were so important, would they really require "deciphering"?


I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:9-10)

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. (NIV, 1 Peter 3:2-5)

Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 11:4-7)

rgcraig 01-21-2010 09:30 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasites (Post 868156)
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:9-10)

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. (NIV, 1 Peter 3:2-5)

More scripture for Deut poster to not ignore.

*AQuietPlace* 01-21-2010 09:32 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasites (Post 868156)
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:9-10)

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. (NIV, 1 Peter 3:2-5)

Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 11:4-7)


I wouldn't call those a dress code, more like guiding principles.

John Atkinson 01-21-2010 09:36 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasites (Post 867886)
Good points!

Here's where I'm at:
I think that everyone can agree on the fact the first churches (epistles) without doubt laid down a number of dress codes. Now with that knowledge, do we:
1 - Try to decipher these dress codes and apply them today?
2 - Try to understand the thought process used in creating these dress codes and apply this process to a 21st Century application?

I think the UPCI has done a little bit of both which has yielded some uncanny results (no beards, open-toed shoes, etc.)

But what I don't know that I can live with is the idea that dress standards are to only be a personal conviction. That is just not supported in the Bible and I would venture to say that even the most open-minded member on here would have some issues if their respective platform staff showed up Sun. morning with purple hair, tattoo's, tongue piercing etc. And as result feel that something should be done or said. ...be honest!

Bottom line is:
I think everyone, (Apostolic's, Baptist's, Catholic's etc.) has a line that they feel should be drawn. I don't see eye-to-eye with every issue, but instead of just tearing down we have to acknowledge that all of us have some sort of personal standard and begin to consider how we can ever reconcile the differences? I know, I know, standards should not be crammed down throats, and taken out of context! I AGREE MORE THAN YOU KNOW! But having no standards is just unrealistic - every religion, workplace, and business does.

Propose a change! Don't just complain about the obvious. But that's a bigger task than what any of us imagine. In this light, I can't throw that many stones at the UPCI

Sorry... didn't realize you responded to me, the thread got busy and so did I.

That is just it, the epistles really didn't hand down any dress codes other than modesty. Most folks wore open toed shoes (sandals) and in Jewish culture only two kinds of men were clean shaven... sodomites and Romans.

Modesty is the standard when it comes to clothing. And with correctly applied biblical principles+Holy Ghost convictions, no-one will have purple hair, piercings or lay on the beach in a speedo or bikini.

I really have no problem with standards applied personally as an outward manifestation of and inward commitment to Jesus. Since we seem to be new to each other and for the benefit of those who do not know me or know me well I fall on the conservative side of the fence and am what this forum's member would call a three stepper. In fact I am probably a bit more on the conservative side than many mainstream UPCI churches.

I agree that having no standards is unrealistic. Everyone has a line, it may be drawn at different places but the line is there.

My only problems with them fall into three areas.
  1. When they are inconsistently taught using inapplicable scriptures or misinterpreted scripture. i.e.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 1 Peter 3:3-4 KJVA
    (3) Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
    (4) But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

    This scripture is incorrectly used as a prohibition against wearing any jewelry. Yet where is the standard which could also be extracted from this on plaiting of hair and apparel? The last UPCI General COnference I went to had all kinds of hairdos and outlandish dresses, but no jewelry of course!

    Instead the principle of the verses is simple, don't let the outward be your adorning. So correctly applied biblical principle would dictate that if I wear jewelry (i don't BTW) it won't be the extravagant sort that draw attention to itself and the same would apply to my hair and clothes.
  2. When they are used as a guideline to judge and discard people, whether they be sinner or saint. Despite the old Apostolic title "Fruit Inspector" which I always heard used in conjunction with judging someone's outward appearance, God never commissioned such an office.

    When we put someone in hell because they got hair on their face or own a television, I think we stand in danger of the judgment over it, because that is precisely what the Pharisees did and we know how Jesus responded to that... he hasn't changed his mind on that.
  3. When preacher arbitrarily make rules up and demand obedience to their personal likes or dislikes because they are "the man of God" and threatens people with hell if they don't line up.
So there that is, pretty much my view of all that. Jesus' didn't come to make a new religion. And when we place an over emphasis on out ward things and mandate them, that is what we are doing, turning the liberty he called us to into another religion.

The UPCI started on a good course, one steppers and three steppers commited to work together to further the gospel, outward wasn't much of an issue... but somewhere along the way it turned into just another religious denomination.

jasites 01-21-2010 09:39 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 868161)
More scripture for Deut poster to not ignore.

Your right, trust me - I agree with your sentiment!

But then again, here we go pointing fingers and tearing down. How do you feel we should handle these scriptures??

I just some people to go on record. Again:
Do we apply them today?
Disregard their application for today?
Try to understand their purpose and alter for 21st century application?

rgcraig 01-21-2010 09:53 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasites (Post 868173)
Your right, trust me - I agree with your sentiment!

But then again, here we go pointing fingers and tearing down. How do you feel we should handle these scriptures??

I just some people to go on record. Again:
Do we apply them today?
Disregard their application for today?
Try to understand their purpose and alter for 21st century application?

See JA's post above - - that I'm 100% in agreement with!

jasites 01-21-2010 09:55 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John Atkinson (Post 868169)
Sorry... didn't realize you responded to me, the thread got busy and so did I.

That is just it, the epistles really didn't hand down any dress codes other than modesty. Most folks wore open toed shoes (sandals) and in Jewish culture only two kinds of men were clean shaven... sodomites and Romans.

Modesty is the standard when it comes to clothing. And with correctly applied biblical principles+Holy Ghost convictions, no-one will have purple hair, piercings or lay on the beach in a speedo or bikini.

I really have no problem with standards applied personally as an outward manifestation of and inward commitment to Jesus. Since we seem to be new to each other and for the benefit of those who do not know me or know me well I fall on the conservative side of the fence and am what this forum's member would call a three stepper. In fact I am probably a bit more on the conservative side than many mainstream UPCI churches.

I agree that having no standards is unrealistic. Everyone has a line, it may be drawn at different places but the line is there.

My only problems with them fall into three areas.

.... The UPCI started on a good course, one steppers and three steppers commited to work together to further the gospel, outward wasn't much of an issue... but somewhere along the way it turned into just another religious denomination.

Thanks for the reply! Seems like you and I are probably pretty close to each other on this issue.

Personally I don't have a problem with dress standards at all, actually, I think they can play a vital role in one's life and for an organization. BUT your right, somewhere down the line it got way out of control. Trust me! I've seen the abuse first hand. But like I've inferred every organization, workplace, business etc. has a dress code and I am proud that the UPCI holds a higher standard than others but I am not proud of how we've have handle, implemented, and judged others in regards to our dress code.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that the majority of people are stacked up two extreme different sides and BOTH sides continue to hurl stones at each other.

rgcraig 01-21-2010 09:56 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John Atkinson (Post 868169)
Sorry... didn't realize you responded to me, the thread got busy and so did I.

That is just it, the epistles really didn't hand down any dress codes other than modesty. Most folks wore open toed shoes (sandals) and in Jewish culture only two kinds of men were clean shaven... sodomites and Romans.

Modesty is the standard when it comes to clothing. And with correctly applied biblical principles+Holy Ghost convictions, no-one will have purple hair, piercings or lay on the beach in a speedo or bikini.

I really have no problem with standards applied personally as an outward manifestation of and inward commitment to Jesus. Since we seem to be new to each other and for the benefit of those who do not know me or know me well I fall on the conservative side of the fence and am what this forum's member would call a three stepper. In fact I am probably a bit more on the conservative side than many mainstream UPCI churches.

I agree that having no standards is unrealistic. Everyone has a line, it may be drawn at different places but the line is there.

My only problems with them fall into three areas.
  1. When they are inconsistently taught using inapplicable scriptures or misinterpreted scripture. i.e.


    This scripture is incorrectly used as a prohibition against wearing any jewelry. Yet where is the standard which could also be extracted from this on plaiting of hair and apparel? The last UPCI General COnference I went to had all kinds of hairdos and outlandish dresses, but no jewelry of course!

    Instead the principle of the verses is simple, don't let the outward be your adorning. So correctly applied biblical principle would dictate that if I wear jewelry (i don't BTW) it won't be the extravagant sort that draw attention to itself and the same would apply to my hair and clothes.
  2. When they are used as a guideline to judge and discard people, whether they be sinner or saint. Despite the old Apostolic title "Fruit Inspector" which I always heard used in conjunction with judging someone's outward appearance, God never commissioned such an office.

    When we put someone in hell because they got hair on their face or own a television, I think we stand in danger of the judgment over it, because that is precisely what the Pharisees did and we know how Jesus responded to that... he hasn't changed his mind on that.
  3. When preacher arbitrarily make rules up and demand obedience to their personal likes or dislikes because they are "the man of God" and threatens people with hell if they don't line up.
So there that is, pretty much my view of all that. Jesus' didn't come to make a new religion. And when we place an over emphasis on out ward things and mandate them, that is what we are doing, turning the liberty he called us to into another religion.

The UPCI started on a good course, one steppers and three steppers commited to work together to further the gospel, outward wasn't much of an issue... but somewhere along the way it turned into just another religious denomination.

POTD

PO - - no one is critizing you for following what God is directing you to do. No one is "tearing down UPC" when they state what has been stated above. Questioning how they got to where they were to where they are maybe, but not tearing them down.

Thanks John for taking the time to make this post.

Jeffrey 01-21-2010 10:22 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 868066)
Sherri's church, Grace Church ... among "Charismatic" churches that speak against social drinking ....

While Elder Epley thinks wine at communion is fine ... There was a time that biblically .... this breaking of bread and wine was a "social" fellowship event.

Those who find excuses will find excuses for going to any church ... and those seeking to prop up their church or org will often resort to fingerpointing as well.

I don't think Sherri's church frowns at using wine for communion, just because they don't encourage social drinking.

DAII 01-21-2010 10:23 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 868204)
I don't think Sherri's church frowns at using wine for communion, just because they don't encourage social drinking.

I don't think so either ... but do not practice this at the church, from my recollection.

rgcraig 01-21-2010 10:25 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 868205)
I don't think so either ... but do not practice this at the church, from my recollection.

Correct - because they are consistent.

DAII 01-21-2010 10:25 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868162)
I wouldn't call those a dress code, more like guiding principles.

Nope ...no dress code with do's and don'ts.

Nor is a dress list set before the Church as a condition for ministerial or Church fellowship.

DAII 01-21-2010 10:27 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 868207)
Correct - because they are consistent.

Darcie, JC and my mom ... members at LTC are not accustomed to drinking alcohol socially or at communion ... so it is not a problem or an issue ... I'm sure they value the consistency. :)

Jeffrey 01-21-2010 10:29 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 868207)
Correct - because they are consistent.

What does that have to do with consistent or inconsistent?
Social drinking or real wine for communion?

rgcraig 01-21-2010 10:30 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 868210)
What does that have to do with consistent or inconsistent?
Social drinking or real wine for communion?

If they don't teach social drinking is okay, they don't use real wine for communion - - consistent.

freeatlast 01-21-2010 10:33 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 868211)
If they don't teach social drinking is okay, they don't use real wine for communion - - consistent.

or they teach the bible says we must abstain from alchol BUT use it or insist upon it in communion .

That makes little sense.

DAII 01-21-2010 10:35 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 868213)
or they teach the bible says we must abstain from alchol BUT use it or insist upon it in communion .

That makes little sense.

I think that's the heart of the problem ... if it's taught as a biblical prohibition and even transgression against God ... and fellowship withheld as the basis of one's personal conviction/interpretation.

This goes to the biblical priniciples taught in Romans 14.

Jeffrey 01-21-2010 11:24 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 868211)
If they don't teach social drinking is okay, they don't use real wine for communion - - consistent.

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get it.

They don't teach alcohol abstinence on the grounds of biblical prohibition, but on the grounds of being prudent and wise.

If alcohol itself isn't evil, I don't see social drinking and communion wine sharing much in common.

Jeffrey 01-21-2010 11:25 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Does anyone have the link to Sherri's church's teaching on the alcohol issue?

rgcraig 01-21-2010 12:02 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 868233)
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get it.

They don't teach alcohol abstinence on the grounds of biblical prohibition, but on the grounds of being prudent and wise.

If alcohol itself isn't evil, I don't see social drinking and communion wine sharing much in common.

Maybe I'm the dense one on this.

pelathais 01-21-2010 12:30 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 868233)
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get it.

They don't teach alcohol abstinence on the grounds of biblical prohibition, but on the grounds of being prudent and wise.

If alcohol itself isn't evil, I don't see social drinking and communion wine sharing much in common.

I think that there is a "consistent" approach to abstaining from alcohol in general but using real wine in the sacrament. It just depends how you approach the subject.

Sam 01-21-2010 01:35 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jasites (Post 868156)
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:9-10)

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. (NIV, 1 Peter 3:2-5)

Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 11:4-7)

In my opinion, the verses in 1 Timothy say that the beauty is not from the outward adornment such as hair styles, jewelry, clothing etc but from a moderate spirit.

In my opinion, the 1 Peter passage does not condemn styling the hair, wearing jewelry or wearing clothing/apparel, but emphasizes like Paul that the real adorning is from the spirit within.

In my opinion, the 1 Corinthians passage is admonishing women to wear the veil because at that time and in that culture, it was considered immodest for a woman to appear in public unveiled. There is also a prohibition to cross dress and join in the sexual orgies which were common in that place at that time.

*AQuietPlace* 01-21-2010 02:37 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 868032)
Church Drop-Out: Overcoming the Youth Exodus
Join us this evening for this free video Simulcast on the Web and the AFR radio network.
01/19/2010

Here's a reminder about an important radio/Internet simulcast coming up tonight on AFR and www.afa.net. It deals with something close to our hearts as parents. In communities all across our land, there's a problem of young people dropping out of church. As a matter of fact, three out of four Christian teens walk away from church after they leave home.

Sincerely,

Tim Wildmon, President
American Family Association


It is true that many young people of every denomination are walking away. I think it is because we (all of Christianity) have turned Jesus into a religion rather than a relationship.


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