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-   -   DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity, (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=28450)

rgcraig 01-21-2010 03:00 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868401)
It is true that many young people of every denomination are walking away. I think it is because we (all of Christianity) have turned Jesus into a religion rather than a relationship.

I believe that's the very reason - - they see the hypocrisy and don't want anything to do with it.

*AQuietPlace* 01-21-2010 03:17 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 868417)
I believe that's the very reason - - they see the hypocrisy and don't want anything to do with it.

Not only hypocrisy, but sometimes it just becomes a system. Just going through the motions, and the real life, the living water, the relationship with Jesus, is lost. And the kids get tired of just being part of a system that has lost meaning for them.

rgcraig 01-21-2010 03:26 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Great to see ya again AQP - - been missing you!

RandyWayne 01-21-2010 03:33 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868401)
It is true that many young people of every denomination are walking away. I think it is because we (all of Christianity) have turned Jesus into a religion rather than a relationship.

If a "rule" is true and good and rooted in principle, young people will see the value in it as they grow older, even if they didn't as children. If it is not, then they will conversely see the hypocrisy, legalism, and plain stupidity in it as well as they become adults and often develop similar attitudes to Christianity itself by association.

Jeffrey 01-21-2010 03:37 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Logic aside, many of these rules are keeping people from growing in God. Instead, they grow in their religion. They climb the imaginary ladders of social stratu (high school never ends), attend conferences, eat late-night meals, make fun of charismatics and compromisers and encourage secret sin (just look the part). The end result? Carnality. Mind you, carnality that prays through every other Sunday, but spiritual midgets none-the-less.

Certainly generalized, but giving you an example.

*AQuietPlace* 01-21-2010 03:55 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 868429)
Great to see ya again AQP - - been missing you!

I've been here. :) Just been feeling mentally drained lately, so haven't contributed much.

pelathais 01-21-2010 04:13 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 868435)
Logic aside, many of these rules are keeping people from growing in God. Instead, they grow in their religion. They climb the imaginary ladders of social stratu (high school never ends), attend conferences, eat late-night meals, make fun of charismatics and compromisers and encourage secret sin (just look the part). The end result? Carnality. Mind you, carnality that prays through every other Sunday, but spiritual midgets none-the-less.

Certainly generalized, but giving you an example.

Certainly is a generalization - but an accurate one that succeeds in the task of encapsulating a large amount of data into a simple statement.

Thus, a fair and accurate generalization in my opinion.

DAII 01-21-2010 05:12 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 868435)
Logic aside, many of these rules are keeping people from growing in God. Instead, they grow in their religion. They climb the imaginary ladders of social stratu (high school never ends), attend conferences, eat late-night meals, make fun of charismatics and compromisers and encourage secret sin (just look the part). The end result? Carnality. Mind you, carnality that prays through every other Sunday, but spiritual midgets none-the-less.

Certainly generalized, but giving you an example.

Yeppers.

Tina 01-21-2010 05:17 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868443)
I've been here. :) Just been feeling mentally drained lately, so haven't contributed much.

You can always chat with us in "Gabby's" thread-- even if you don't contribute anywhere else. We miss you when you aren't around!

*AQuietPlace* 01-21-2010 05:28 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 868482)
You can always chat with us in "Gabby's" thread-- even if you don't contribute anywhere else. We miss you when you aren't around!

Okay, I'll pop over there while my batteries recharge. :)

Pressing-On 01-21-2010 08:20 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 868062)
Also, to the comment about people backsliding in America, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it has not as much to do with the power in the churches as it has to do with the prosperity in the nation. If these folks come from countries that have no professional sports, no leisure activities, and no money to attend them even if they existed, it could well be a contributing factor when they come to a country with 500 channels on basic cable, more to do OUTSIDE the church that inside the church, and money with which to indulge these pleasures. Just a thought.

I have to agree with you here. I think that we are very distracted with all of our toys and gadgets. And I think, in some cases, leadership, which you termed as "power in the churches" has something to do with it also.

But, I believe the statistic is true when it says that no matter the size of the congregation, you will have 25% doing the majority of the giving and the work. That tells me that no matter the situation in the church, you will find faithful and sincere people.

Quote:

And, I haven't been around here very much lately, so I will concede that maybe I've missed some threads, but at least on this thread, I haven't seen anyone trying to convince anyone to leave the UPCI. I've only seen people discuss the validity of an organizational position. The nastiest posts I've seen on this thread have come from an ultracon, defending the position. And, to be honest, my experience is that there is just as much pressure from those still in the mothership placed on those who have left as the other way around.
There's that perception coming into play - in the eye of the beholder. No sense in discussing this any further. ;)

Quote:

Either way, I enjoyed the discussion, thanks!
Always! Thanks for the input!

BeenThinkin 01-21-2010 08:21 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868492)
Okay, I'll pop over there while my batteries recharge. :)

How do you get your batteries recharged? :treadmill:

BeenThinkin' TOO MUCH! :foottap

Pressing-On 01-21-2010 08:24 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DAII (Post 868078)
What the world is looking for as aptly stated by brother in Christ, Mark Bassett, is a Jesus Identity .... not an Artificial Identity!

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 868143)
Very true!

I guess that's one reason MB has chosen to leave the mothership.

I guess while we are on the subject - I wonder if you could term this as a "broadbrush"?

When I read this comment, I am reading, "If you are in the "Mothership", you have Artificial Identity".

So, would you be saying that I do not have a real and sincere relationship with God? That I cannot hear His voice? That He does not give me direction?

rgcraig 01-21-2010 08:27 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 868574)
I guess while we are on the subject - I wonder if you could term this as a "broadbrush"?

When I read this comment, I am reading, "If you are in the "Mothership", you have Artificial Identity".

So, would you be saying that I do not have a real and sincere relationship with God? That I cannot hear His voice? That He does not give me direction?

That post has nothing to do with you and it's not a broadbrush. MB feels that way and I was just stating that apparently is one reason he's no longer in the mothership.

I read MB's post and was just responding to DA.

Pressing-On 01-21-2010 08:33 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On;
Church Drop-Out: Overcoming the Youth Exodus
Join us this evening for this free video Simulcast on the Web and the AFR radio network.
01/19/2010

Here's a reminder about an important radio/Internet simulcast coming up tonight on AFR and www.afa.net. It deals with something close to our hearts as parents. In communities all across our land, there's a problem of young people dropping out of church. As a matter of fact, three out of four Christian teens walk away from church after they leave home.

Sincerely,

Tim Wildmon, President
American Family Association

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868401)
It is true that many young people of every denomination are walking away. I think it is because we (all of Christianity) have turned Jesus into a religion rather than a relationship.

I think that some have, but as I remember the story in I Kings 18:22 "Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men."

It is not possible for me to believe that the whole of Christianity has turned this blessed church into a religious package. I don't know why, but that kind of comment (we've turned Jesus into a religion) always reminds me of Eeyore, I mean, Elijah! LOL!

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." II Corinthians 3:17 We will always have God.

I have never been in a church situation or personal situation where I could not get a hold of God. He is ever present.

rgcraig 01-22-2010 11:14 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 868577)
I think that some have, but as I remember the story in I Kings 18:22 "Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men."

It is not possible for me to believe that the whole of Christianity has turned this blessed church into a religious package. I don't know why, but that kind of comment (we've turned Jesus into a religion) always reminds me of Eeyore, I mean, Elijah! LOL!

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." II Corinthians 3:17 We will always have God.

I have never been in a church situation or personal situation where I could not get a hold of God. He is ever present.

You are mixing your personal experience with AQP's quote. You can't understand anyone turning Jesus into a religion, but that doesn't mean that it's not happening.

The very problem is that so many have made it about programs or a religion and not a true relationship (like you have) with God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*
It is true that many young people of every denomination are walking away. I think it is because we (all of Christianity) have turned Jesus into a religion rather than a relationship.

*AQuietPlace* 01-22-2010 11:41 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 868577)
I think that some have, but as I remember the story in I Kings 18:22 "Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men."

It is not possible for me to believe that the whole of Christianity has turned this blessed church into a religious package. I don't know why, but that kind of comment (we've turned Jesus into a religion) always reminds me of Eeyore, I mean, Elijah! LOL!

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." II Corinthians 3:17 We will always have God.

I have never been in a church situation or personal situation where I could not get a hold of God. He is ever present.

The reason I put (all of Christianity) in there, is because I figured if I just put 'we' you'd think I was just picking on Pentecostals. :D

I didn't mean 'all' as in every single person in Christianity. Of course there are people who have a genuine relationship with God. But, I think Christianity has become very "religious" in many cases. It's a system, a ritual, a tradition, and for many children that is all they're getting out of it.

I had a conversation with a teen last night (who was raised in church) who told me - "I know there is obviously a God, because all of this didn't get here on its own. But, other than that, it all just seems so pointless. The whole church thing, all of it. I just don't understand what it's really all about."

And that is often what is going on in teen's heads. They've been presented a religion, but they just don't "get" it. Sometimes we get so busy going to church, just doing our thing, that we can just get caught up in a routine and forget the true purpose.

Of course YOU have a relationship with God. And no, you're not the only one. But there is SOME reason why Christianity is losing 2/3 of its youth.

dizzyde 01-22-2010 12:43 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868833)
The reason I put (all of Christianity) in there, is because I figured if I just put 'we' you'd think I was just picking on Pentecostals. :D

I didn't mean 'all' as in every single person in Christianity. Of course there are people who have a genuine relationship with God. But, I think Christianity has become very "religious" in many cases. It's a system, a ritual, a tradition, and for many children that is all they're getting out of it.

I had a conversation with a teen last night (who was raised in church) who told me - "I know there is obviously a God, because all of this didn't get here on its own. But, other than that, it all just seems so pointless. The whole church thing, all of it. I just don't understand what it's really all about."

And that is often what is going on in teen's heads. They've been presented a religion, but they just don't "get" it. Sometimes we get so busy going to church, just doing our thing, that we can just get caught up in a routine and forget the true purpose.

Of course YOU have a relationship with God. And no, you're not the only one. But there is SOME reason why Christianity is losing 2/3 of its youth.

This is exactly the same type of conversation I have been having with a loved on lately, on more than one occasion. I am not saying that it is across the board, but what I am seeing more and more from the Apostolic movement is this "knee-jerk" reaction to things that have gone on, this desire to hold true to traditions.

Which isn't in and of itself a bad thing, but the danger is that in many instances, this has solidified the "religion" aspect of being Apostolic, versus the relationship aspect. The very thing that so many have proclaimed, "this is a relationship" is negated by the determination to hold on to some things, based on tradition alone. It terrifies and really alienates me.

I cannot understand this fear of examining our beliefs, understanding why and what we believe. My daughter made the statement last night, that the generation of youth coming up under her are clueless. She said they have no clue why they do the things they do, they are just mindlessly going through the motions, for the most part. That was always so huge to me, even if I didn't necessarily agree with some of the things that were taught, I wanted her to understand WHY they were taught, what the meaning and reason for them were. I never, ever wanted her to answer someone questioning why she did or didn't do something, that it was "against my religion."

RandyWayne 01-22-2010 12:59 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 868862)
This is exactly the same type of conversation I have been having with a loved on lately, on more than one occasion. I am not saying that it is across the board, but what I am seeing more and more from the Apostolic movement is this "knee-jerk" reaction to things that have gone on, this desire to hold true to traditions.

Which isn't in and of itself a bad thing, but the danger is that in many instances, this has solidified the "religion" aspect of being Apostolic, versus the relationship aspect. The very thing that so many have proclaimed, "this is a relationship" is negated by the determination to hold on to some things, based on tradition alone. It terrifies and really alienates me.

I cannot understand this fear of examining our beliefs, understanding why and what we believe. My daughter made the statement last night, that the generation of youth coming up under her are clueless. She said they have no clue why they do the things they do, they are just mindlessly going through the motions, for the most part. That was always so huge to me, even if I didn't necessarily agree with some of the things that were taught, I wanted her to understand WHY they were taught, what the meaning and reason for them were. I never, ever wanted her to answer someone questioning why she did or didn't do something, that it was "against my religion."

For most of my teen years this was the exact reason I gave outsiders for doing the things we did in our church.

*AQuietPlace* 01-22-2010 01:01 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyWayne (Post 868870)
For most of my teen years this was the exact reason I gave outsiders for doing the things we did in our church.

It was the answer I gave most often, too, because the scriptures that were used to explain many of the issues just didn't make sense to me. Try explaining below-elbow sleeves to your friends at school, biblically. ;)

dizzyde 01-22-2010 01:14 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868872)
It was the answer I gave most often, too, because the scriptures that were used to explain many of the issues just didn't make sense to me. Try explaining below-elbow sleeves to your friends at school, biblically. ;)

Exactly! That is the exact type of thing I am talking about, it is ludicrous through the eyes of an outsider (actually, also through the eyes of a "blinders off" insider.) I can explain the spirit behind it, ie, guarding modesty, but to give a biblical explanation? Not so much. But to even question this stuff has become a form of heresy. I'm really tired of it, truthfully. If my "religion" cannot be examined, then it is wrong, IMO.

*AQuietPlace* 01-22-2010 01:28 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 868874)
Exactly! That is the exact type of thing I am talking about, it is ludicrous through the eyes of an outsider (actually, also through the eyes of a "blinders off" insider.) I can explain the spirit behind it, ie, guarding modesty, but to give a biblical explanation? Not so much. But to even question this stuff has become a form of heresy. I'm really tired of it, truthfully. If my "religion" cannot be examined, then it is wrong, IMO.

You're exactly right! What are we so afraid of? We proclaim to have "the truth", and yet questioning is rarely allowed. I don't get it.

Timmy 01-22-2010 02:19 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868879)
You're exactly right! What are we so afraid of? We proclaim to have "the truth", and yet questioning is rarely allowed. I don't get it.

I do. Just sayin'. :)

Michael Phelps 01-22-2010 03:39 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* (Post 868879)
You're exactly right! What are we so afraid of? We proclaim to have "the truth", and yet questioning is rarely allowed. I don't get it.

I taught a Bible Study when I pastored, entitled "Examining our Beliefs", and I used this scripture as my basis:

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


We were going to investigate what we believed, and back it up with scripture. However, I caught so much flack from the congregation that I pulled the plug early on the series, because I had people get up, yell at me, and walk out in the middle of Bible Study!

One lady, who's children were backslidden, said "I'm not taking this workbook home, I don't want my kids to see the title! I don't want them to think we're questioning any thing!"

It wasn't long after that that I resigned, lol.

missourimary 01-22-2010 04:20 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Wow. We must know some of the same people somehow, MP! (I was going to put a smiley, but that is really sad, actually...) :kickcan

pelathais 01-22-2010 04:35 PM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 868961)
...

One lady, who's children were backslidden, said "I'm not taking this workbook home, I don't want my kids to see the title! I don't want them to think we're questioning any thing!"

It wasn't long after that that I resigned, lol.

I know that lady and those other folks... why'd you send them my way? http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon9.gif

But seriously, I still never cease to be amazed at the tiny level of faith people have and how they feel their beliefs and religious practices have to be bottled up and hidden away to keep them secure.

Your story reminded me of one dear sister who used to scream and holler at me all the time whenever the subject of sports, video games and the like came up. Now, years later she's encouraging people to "live their lives" and responds cheerfully to reports of her family members who have attended a ball game and had a good time. One her grandsons owns a business now built around video gaming and she couldn't be more proud.

If it's not worth hollering about today - why all the screaming yesterday? And, what does this tell me about the stuff they're hollering about today?

Will McLeod 01-28-2010 09:06 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
This is a REPLY to (freeatlast) post #159.

Well I was going to refrain from coming on here and disputing your "gross" negligence in your interpretation of Deuteronomy 22:5. But upon my study of the life of David this morning, I ran across a scripture that reminded me of your above referenced statement. I recognized your response almost "verbatim" to Jason Young's "The Truth About Deuteronomy 22:5" which is FALSE, but heres the link: where you got YOUR INFO!

http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/women-pants.htm

The problem you face is that :
#1) Jason Young is NOT a scholar as you state.
#2) Most reference material that you have referred to has since be "REVISED"
Layman's Term: CORRECTED

That being said, you have stated that:
(ke"li) : "It is most often translated as some sort of weapon or armor."

1) This FALSE...It is translated as a weapon ONLY (17) times. Weapon (4) and armour (10) times. That would equal = 31 times translated as such.

Using your logic of "frequency of use" that could easily be disputed with the "frequency of use" as it is translated as
stuff (14) times
thing(s) (11) times
vessell(s) (132) times
and vessel (34) times for a total of 191 times it NEVER referred to a "weapon or armour".
That's just using the "law of consistency".

The word you use "gibbor" is INCORRECT. Once again you used faulty reference material.

Try an "UPDATED" reference like: Strong's STRONGEST Concordance "Most updated available" re:2001

The word "man or man's" was translated to English by way of the Hebrew word "geber". Which means "strong or young man". It was translated to "man" (53) times
men (6) times
and "man's" (2)

the word "gibbor" does NOT even cross reference with the word Strong's 1397: "geber".

"Gibbor' " was NEVER EVEN USED IN DEUTERONOMY.

The Hebrew word "IS' " was most commonly used in Deuteronomy. Re: Strong's 376: "is' ". The reason it was NOT used by Moses in Deuteronomy 22:5 is BECAUSE it referred or "implied" to a "certain" or "one of a kind" man.

Moses "meant" his use of "man" as a general discription implying "all men or ANY man".

Heres a GOOD reference as how to interpret scripture "consistantly".
For instance, the King James Version translates 1 Samuel 17.22 like this:

"And David left his carriage in the hand of the keeper of the carriage, and ran into the army."

The word "carriage" in BOTH uses of this scripture, were translated from the SAME word we discussed, the Hebrew word "ke'li ". The word carriage here did NOT refer to a "cart or carrier" but rather to "THINGS". Same word Moses used in Deuteronomy 22:5. "that which pertaineth" aka "ke'li " -Reference: that which belonged to David- re: ( ke'li )

So.........your interpretation of Deuteronomy 22:5 is "flawed" inaccurate and FALSE.

What you have showed us is that YOU are a NOVICE in the scriptures, merely "quoting" what you've read and/or heard rather than studying the scripture yourself.

It DANGEROUS to state someones "oppinion" as FACT.


2 Timothy 2:15 reads like this:
"Study to shew thy self approved unto GOD, a workman that needth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."



Let's also look at Job 4:17:
"Shall mortal "man" be more just than GOD? shall a "man" be more pure than his maker?

Notice something strang here? The first "man"...mortal man (describing word).
Notice the use of a "modifier". Strong's 582; "nos". Then in the second "man". There we see it again. Strong's Re: 1397 "geber". The writer of Job used this word to refer to "man in general" or "any man" or "all man". No modifier.

I have NOT written this to degrade you or demean you in any manner. This was to merely correct you. The interpretation of Deuteronomy 22:5 that is accepted in the "Apostolic Doctrine" is VALID and CORRECT.


One must be familiar with the systematic approach to Bible translation to better understand. The Bible was translated as "near prefect as possible". Keep in mind that there are NOT eqivalent words in each language to convert "entire" meanings sometimes. A translator must translate and maintain the same direction and spirit of the original text as it relates to culture and subject matter....REGARDLESS of the language it is being interpreted into.


GOD BLESS IN JESUS NAME

Will

freeatlast 01-28-2010 09:36 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Will McLeod: This not from the source you mentioned. I'll opost it again.

I do believe that "the man" refered to in Dt. 22:5 properly interpreted was refering to a warrior /soldier , one who wore the clothing and armament of a soldier.


Quote:

Originally Posted by freeatlast (Post 867410)
DuetCh8: take a minute and read the words penned by a few ver scholarly men concerning Dt 22:5

there is no way this verse means what you propose it mean...and it IS the hallmark verse of the entire apostolic identy crowd.

It is the ONLY verse that, misinterpreted, is found in the entire old and New testament to stand upon when you command a women not wear a split legged article of clothing-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I. What do the words actually say in the Hebrew language according to the scholars? The first phrase - The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man.


A. The first phrase, that which pertaineth - the phrase that which pertaineth is represented in the Hebrew by one word, the word keli, and it most generally means a manufactured article. It is most often translated as some sort of weapon or armor.


1. Scholarly references for the word keli: Strongs: 3627 kee-lee" something prepared, i.e. any apparatus (as an implement, utensil, dress, vessel or weapon): --armour [bearer], artillery, bag, carriage + furnish, furniture, instrument, jewel, that is made of one from another, that which pertaineth, pot, psaltery, sack, stuff, thing, tool, vessel, ware, weapon (emphasis Strong's) whatsoever.


2. Gesenius (Hebrew words and most references used by the author deleted) properly whatever is made, completed, or prepared...(1) any utensil, vessel. Gen 31:37; 45:20. vessels of gold, of silver, the vessels of the temple, vessels of wandering, outfit for exile. (2)clothing,* ornaments of a bride, also for yokes for oxen. (3) a vessel for sailing. (4.) an implement, a tool, musical instruments, instruments of the indignation of Jehovah (5) arms, weapons Ben. 27:3 ; Jud 18:11,16. more fully, deadly weapons Psalm 7:14. , an armour-bearer 1 Sam.14:1, 6, 7, 31:4,5,6 an armoury Isa 39:2.


3. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament: 982g vessel, utensil, The basic idea of this root is "to bring a process to completion." The root occurs in all its forms 237 times. Of these 206 are verbal....The idea of being consumed is most commonly applied to violent destruction, often by war...


4. Wigrams, The New Englishman's Hebrew/Aramaic Concordance: k'lee Translated 45 times as armour, or weapons. Most other times as instrument, jewel, furniture, vessels, etc., but never, *not even in Deut 22:5 is it translated clothing.

Conclusion: The word keli most often means a manufactured item, quite often a weapon, or armor. *It is never, except in Deuteronomy 22:5, translated “that which pertaineth,” “clothing,” or “garment.”


B. The phrase translated unto a man is also represented in the Hebrew language by a single word - gibbor.


1. Scholarly references for the word gibbor -- Strong's, 1368 gibbor, ghib-bore; from 1397 geber gheh'ber, a valiant man or warrior, powerful: by implication warrior, tyrant: --champion, chief, excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one) strong (man), valiant man.


2. Gesenius 1368 author’s references and Hebrew words omitted (1) strong, mighty, impetuous, used of a hunter, commonly of an impetuous soldier, a hero, a mighty king (Alexander the Great), a mighty hero. [The mighty God: Christ is spoken of] these are the heroes, those who were famous of old; the lion is a hero among the beasts; also used of a soldier generally, a mighty warrior, Used of God, Jehovah (is) strong and mighty, Jehovah (is) mighty in battle....(2) a chief, a military leader, the commander of soldiers and the soldier. Used generally of a chief. (3) in a bad sense, proud, a tyrant, like the Arab.


3. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament: 310 (condensed) (ga bar) prevail, be mighty, have strength, be great. Derivatives, man, mighty man. might. lady, queen. .... The Hebrew root is commonly associated with warfare and has to do with the strength and vitality of the successful warrior....(RSV often translates "warrior") The heroes or champions among the armed forces.


4. Wigrams, p. 289, 290, translated mighty men, mighty one, mighty hunter, mighty, mighty man, mighty men, strong, valiant men, mightiest, mighty of valour, strong man, giant, as a strong man, the Mighty God, the mighty. The only instance it is translated as man is in Du 22:5. Not so translated in any other place.


Conclusion: the word gibbor does not refer to every ordinary man. It refers to a distinct type of man, amighty man, most likely a military man or soldier which matches nicely with the word keli which most often means armour. By this interpretation the scripture speaks against the idolatrous practice of either enticing or frightening demons, something which would, indeed, be an abomination unto the LORD!


Pressing-On 01-28-2010 09:37 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Thank you for your contribution to this thread, Will. Good points!

I was wondering if you have studied the word "wear" in Deut 22:5? I notice it is used only one time in the OT. It appears to have a different meaning than to just put on clothing.

Strongest Strong's says "wear" includes 1961+5921

1961 - "to exist, that is to be or become....."

Could you comment on that, if you have the time? I was of the understanding that Deut 22:5 is referring to homosexuality.

*AQuietPlace* 01-28-2010 09:57 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
No matter how you interpret these scriptures, you are left with this fact:

Men and women both wore robes during the time Deut. was written. For over 5,000 years of recorded human history, men and women both wore robes. Now, men and women both wear pants.

Nowhere in the Bible does it demand that men and women dress drastically different. Nowhere does it demand that they must be dressed completely different from the waist down.

There were slight differences in men and women's robes, there are slight differences in men and women's pants.

Women's pants is not a man's garment. I don't know a single man who would be caught dead in a pair of women's pants.

We have taken a cultural issue that was faced during the 1920s or thereabout, and forced Deut. to address that issue. It doesn't. Men had transitioned from robes to pants several hundred years before, now women were making that transition. It caused an uproar, because it was a transition, and transitions always cause an uproar. There is historical evidence that there was the same uproar when men transitioned from robes to pants. They were seen as immodest.

Men and women have worn the same general garment, with some distinctive differences, for most of human history. If you walk into Walmart, you can tell at a glance, without reading the signs, whether you're in the men's clothing department, or the women's. There is still an easily noticeable difference between men's and women's clothing.

I've bought jeans at a garage sale before, thinking they were boys. My sons would begin to put them on, and then whip them right back off, exclaiming - "These are girls' pants! I'm not wearing these!" The cut is different, the pockets are different, the button is different. It's a woman's garment, not a man's. Women's pants don't 'pertain to' a man. They pertain to a woman. That's why my sons won't wear them.

rgcraig 01-28-2010 10:05 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
AQP - THAT is the bottom (no pun intended) line!

freeatlast 01-28-2010 10:27 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
AQP great post. My thoughts exactly. Even if all those refence books are wrong as Will McLeod says...there still is NO scripture to support Dresses only on women as our "Apostolic Idenity"

Will McLeod 01-28-2010 10:45 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
@freeatlast: Your reply ONLY states what YOU believe. That doesn't make for a good argument in Biblical Theology. Thats like saying Im right because I "think" I'm right. I am willing to listen to your argument, BUT you are using words and meanings that are NOT present.

I do understand that my 12 yrs of studying Hebrew/Aramaic and my study in the field of BIBLE Translation is limited compared to some. Nevertheless, I must render my decision to stand firm on my "educated" belief, which can be translated to FACT in ANY language.

Dimples 01-28-2010 10:47 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Will McLeod (Post 871256)
@freeatlast: Your reply ONLY states what YOU believe. That doesn't make for a good argument in Biblical Theology. Thats like saying Im right because I "think" I'm right. I am willing to listen to your argument, BUT you are using words and meanings that are NOT present.

I do understand that my 12 yrs of studying Hebrew/Aramaic and my study in the field of BIBLE Translation is limited compared to some. Nevertheless, I must render my decision to stand firm on my "educated" belief, which can be translated to FACT in ANY language.

What about the FACT that they all wore robes?

TroubleMaker 01-28-2010 10:57 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Will McLeod (Post 871256)
@freeatlast: Your reply ONLY states what YOU believe. That doesn't make for a good argument in Biblical Theology. Thats like saying Im right because I "think" I'm right. I am willing to listen to your argument, BUT you are using words and meanings that are NOT present.

I do understand that my 12 yrs of studying Hebrew/Aramaic and my study in the field of BIBLE Translation is limited compared to some. Nevertheless, I must render my decision to stand firm on my "educated" belief, which can be translated to FACT in ANY language.


Holy Cow!! 12 Years? Hey everybody, don't argue with Will! He took a class! He's educated! I'm calling my wife right now and telling her to take her pants off!! Wait------------I mean------------well, you know what I mean. Hopefully.

Just think, studying something for 12 years and he STILL doesn't know what it means. That's too bad.

Pressing-On 01-28-2010 10:59 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Will McLeod (Post 871256)
@freeatlast: Your reply ONLY states what YOU believe. That doesn't make for a good argument in Biblical Theology. Thats like saying Im right because I "think" I'm right. I am willing to listen to your argument, BUT you are using words and meanings that are NOT present.

I do understand that my 12 yrs of studying Hebrew/Aramaic and my study in the field of BIBLE Translation is limited compared to some. Nevertheless, I must render my decision to stand firm on my "educated" belief, which can be translated to FACT in ANY language.

Could you comment on the word "wear" used in Deut 22:5? I found it curious that the definition is only used once.

BTW, I found an error in the Strongest Strong's and wrote the publisher who confirmed that I had, indeed, found a bona fide error. lol I can't remember today what it was, although, I do remember it being in the NT. I'll have to go through the book as I'm sure I marked it somewhere. That has nothing to do with your study above. I just thought you may find that interesting.

Dimples 01-28-2010 11:06 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Will McLeod (Post 871256)
@freeatlast: Your reply ONLY states what YOU believe. That doesn't make for a good argument in Biblical Theology. Thats like saying Im right because I "think" I'm right. I am willing to listen to your argument, BUT you are using words and meanings that are NOT present.

I do understand that my 12 yrs of studying Hebrew/Aramaic and my study in the field of BIBLE Translation is limited compared to some. Nevertheless, I must render my decision to stand firm on my "educated" belief, which can be translated to FACT in ANY language.

Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose the former and have seen no reason to change.
Frank Lloyd Wright

Sam 01-28-2010 11:17 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker (Post 871265)
Holy Cow!! 12 Years? Hey everybody, don't argue with Will! He took a class! He's educated! I'm calling my wife right now and telling her to take her pants off!! Wait------------I mean------------well, you know what I mean. Hopefully.

Just think, studying something for 12 years and he STILL doesn't know what it means. That's too bad.

Better be careful you don't get your wife in trouble if she takes her pants off.

Remember that poor guy and all the trouble he got into after he misunderstood what his wife meant when she told him to drop his pants at the Dry Cleaner.

Sam 01-28-2010 11:21 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TroubleMaker (Post 871265)
...
Just think, studying something for 12 years and he STILL doesn't know what it means. That's too bad.



Is this sorta like "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"?

Timmy 01-28-2010 11:23 AM

Re: DKB Shares His Vision: Apostolic Identity,
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam (Post 871272)
Better be careful you don't get your wife in trouble if she takes her pants off.

Remember that poor guy and all the trouble he got into after he misunderstood what his wife meant when she told him to drop his pants at the Dry Cleaner.

:toofunny

http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/46293..._attention.jpg


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