[coksiw]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Let me point towards three things off the bat:

1.) Jesus is using the description of the unclean spirit going out then coming back to make a point about the wicked generation He is condemning. Therefore, the message about the unclean spirit is ancillary to the main topic.

2.) Notice that when the unclean spirit comes back with seven spirits worse them himself, he and they just enter right in and make themselves at home, and the last state of the man is worse than the first.

3.) In Hebrew, seven is not just a number but is also the root word for covenant. To covenant oneself was to "seven" oneself.

Just prior to these comments, He said Nineveh and the Queen of the South would rise up in judgment against that generation and condemn it, because, in the first, Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah, and at the second, the Queen of the South traveled all the way from Ethiopia to hear Solomon.

And in both cases, someone greater than both Jonah and Solomon was present, and that generation wasn't receiving Him or heeding His words.

Therefore, the last state of that generation was going to end up worse than the first state of that generation, that is when Jesus first confronted it. And of course, the last state of that generation was the Roman sacking of Judah and Jerusalem in 70AD.

The pertinent issue there being that Judah and Jerusalem were supposing themselves to be in covenant with God, but in fact, were not. Rather, Judah and Jerusalem were in league with Rome. Therefore, the seven worse spirits suggest that the covenant made with Rome was going to come back to haunt and finally destroy Judah and Jerusalem. As it did.

Regarding the unclean spirit: Jesus was purging Judah and Jerusalem of its uncleanness before God through His teaching and works. He was "casting out" the devil, so to speak, from the collective conscious of His people at that place and in that era.

And so, for a time afterward, Judah and Jerusalem remained purged, that is, for the next 40 years or so. The Christ-led revival was overpowering the unclean "spirit" that had been in control of the people of Judah and Jerusalem. But eventually, just as Jesus said, eventually that spirit would return, find the land and the generation cleansed, and decide it was time to come back and lay it waste. And so it did.

In a more practical view, have you ever seen someone backslide? The tendency is not just to revert back to a pre-redeemed, but an otherwise equivalent state of sin, but in fact, to go seven times worse into carnal dissolution and debauchery.

Now, if you have someone who was ideologically possessed, but then was delivered by the power of God in Christ, but then falls away and returns to their vomit, the levels of insanity they then descend into far outpace whatever amount of insanity they experienced prior to their deliverance.

Brother I have learned interesting things in your posts about history. However, I think some of the reasoning you use to connect things are based on pretty weak arguments to establish a new understanding of what demon posses is.

1. That's true in Matthew, but in Luke the context is about demons:
[Luk 11:14 NASB] 14 And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute; when the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed.

3. Good point, but I can also say that it is just used to make the point of "one vs many" in the rhetoric, as in here: "[Mat 18:22 NASB] 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven." and here: "[Luk 17:4 NASB] 4 "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Two instances come to mind of demon posses people that the bible suggests that they had non human powers to perform what they did:

"[Act 19:15-16 NASB] 15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

"[Act 16:18 NASB, see the whole story] 18 She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment." Regarding this, I definitely don't believe that spirits can control the future unless God allows them, but I can see those evil spirits impressing the people that came to that girl by telling them what they did in secret or they only know. That's how that divination stuff works.

And also, how this second self knew who Jesus was? Jesus casting out the second self that knew who he was?
[Mar 1:23-25 NASB] 23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 saying, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!" 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!"

Also here? you see that those second selves seemed to knew something by saying "torment us before time". And they also went to a herd of swine. How can a second self move from the person to a herd of swine? The bible doesn't give a different explanation to this event:
[Mat 8:29-31 NASB] 29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons [began] to entreat Him, saying, "If You [are going to] cast us out, send us into the herd of swine."

Don't you think the Bible here is indicating that those spirits are external entities to the victim, not the victims themselves with a second self?

Regarding James 1:8, the context is lack of faith making you easy movable in one direction or the other in life: [Jas 1:6-8 NASB] 6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 [being] a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

You said here: "It may be, therefore, that demons such as we've thought of them are not roaming spirits of unknown origin, but rather, of terrible states of mind that people can enter into under the duress of Satan or the Dragon of Revelation" Doesn't the Bible have already a name for this?
"[Eph 4:18 NASB] 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;" "[Rom 1:28 NASB] 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,"
I think that's the worst state a person can get already by themselves with no help because I can't find in the bible anything worst than that regarding state of mind directly linked to person's own conscious decisions. They start with hardness of heart, and they end with a depraved mind. But I don't see any link in those scriptures between being demon posses and the acts of a depraved mind; or people in that condition always described as demon posses.


Brother, the topic is interesting. I didn't have time to judge every proposition you use in your reasoning, but I hope I brought enough for you to think about.