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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
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Dom again, does not aim at disproving my Ro14 conclusions. Dom below, mostly avoids commenting on the main reason for this thread.
My reply today to Dom's reply is bolded. Some words in Red have been added for clarification purposes.
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Dom says in post 12: We aren't called to stay in a church family or an organization to be troublemakers. Perhaps Dom is calling me a trouble maker, making this to be in line with his opening tone. And what of those who earnestly contend for the faith? Are they trouble makers by your definition, Dom? Or instead, are they trying to be obedient to the Word? A trouble maker is one from the heart. It is their nature to do so, regardless of the time or circumstance. Wherever they go, it will come through to the surface because that is what they are. What does Dom have as a definition of trouble maker? Do you Dom describe Jude as one instigating trouble?
Don, to take into consideration your supposed hypothetical. Pastor John Doe, doesn't need B. Smith in his church family. Period. What B. Smith needed to do is take his show on the road.
What kind of attitude are you propagating here, when saying 'Pastor Doe does not need B Smith.' ? This attitude sucks, Dom. The message I hear from most pulpits is that everyone in the church is invaluable. Therefore, Pastor Doe needs B Smith not to go.Go gather his own sheaves, and teach them what he has on his mind. That's all.
Dom, you are in effect cutting Ro14 out of the Bible. Instead of defending its correct conclusions and applying its teaching to Pastor Doe, you support Pastor Doe's non-Biblical actions by wishing B. Smith out the church. Where is your Apostolic love for Biblical Truth? You show favour for the unscriptural actions of a fallible man, over the correct implementation of the Word. You are making a fool of yourself writing this. I don't visit anyone's church to contend for the faith once delivered unto the Saints.
You don't??? Why? Because it is a waste of precious time. I'm a visitor, the pastor and the elders live with their people. 365 days a year. So, what ever comes out of my mouth no matter how hidden manna it might be, gets totally undone by the elders once I step out of the pulpit.
Dear God, plz help us with the attitudes of evangelist's, who think your Word has no power to change wrong attitudes of Pastors in the churches the evangelist preaches in. They are refusing to preach your Word because they think it will not have any effect. Dom, in effect, you say God has wasted his time giving us his Word when billions will choose to ignore it anyway. You thus minimize the role of God-ordained preachers/evangelists, saying their time would be wasted preaching the Word. If that's your sense from your evangelist-travels, of most Pastors' hearts, and reflects what most evangelists believe, then the church is in a sorry state indeed. Are you even Apostolic? Do you have any faith in God's Word? This from you, if true, tells of a sordid state in both you and Pastors, and may be the reason why your replies are what they are, as contrary to what I've presented as Biblical truth. Lord have mercy on us. Fortunately, what you say is not reflected in Pastors I personally know.
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Would Jude say to leave the fellowship of the NT faithful to contend from outside the Church, or not to stay in a church family?
Don, Jude wasn't in a 21st century Pentecostal church with a church office.
What are you as an Apostolic trying to say? The Word is applicable to all generations in every culture. Your statement indicates you think otherwise.
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I don't read Jude to say to leavethe church, which Dom seems to indicate. Those who contend for others to continue with or to return to the faith which was once for all delivered, do not leave the Church, or church, to do what the Word commands. They stay and from there contend. Ok, so how'd that work out for you? You still there? You still contending?
God gives instructions to share his Word whether it is received by others or not. Many OT prophets beat their heads against the wall in preaching and had no success doing so. This didn't stop their obedience. Or are you still there still being tolerated? Or, have you been given the Left Foot of Fellowship? Where the elders grab you by the collar and open the church doors with your head. Don, either you sit down with the elders, and intelligently show them, book, chapter, and verse, or you go contend for the faith on the other side of town.
Dom may make an assumption to give you the impression that I am a trouble maker who sneaks around behind the Pastor's back, teaching against the Pastor. Dom may also suggest that I don't intelligently approach, if I approach a Pastor. We'll let Dom keep making untrue assumptions. He's well practiced in this method. I'll not let Dom know if his assumption is true or not.Jesus did say to knock the dirt off your clothes against them as a testimony. So, if they won't buy what your peddling, ( from dealing with you here, I believe their case is warranted) then I strongly suggest you knock the dust off.
Dom again demonstrates lack of discernment with this incorrect interpretation of the Word. Jesus here spoke of Apostolics approaching unbelievers, and thus, this does not apply to a situation when Apostolics approach Apostolics, because they are both believers.
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Those who contend may have the appearance of being contentious. Some describe contending as troublemaking but not the Word. Godly Paul had much contention with Judaizers over circumcision but wouldn't in the end call him a trouble maker.You are making my point by bringing up Paul. He would be considered your Pastor John Doe, and the Judaizers would be B. Smith.
From the git-go I've brought up Paul. What are you smoking, fogging your mind, which tells us you think that I just now brought up Paul? You made this response after a long tiring day, didn't you Dom? Rather this: Paul wrote Ro14 and would himself have followed what he teaches. Pastor Doe is not a Paul and does not follow what Paul's teaches in Ro14. And you have yet also to demonstrate how B. Smith characterizes a Judaizer, which is spiting your claim they are. Just your saying something, Dom, does not mean it is an actual fact, unless your thinking isn't clear. Have you not yet learned this? We are talking about 21st century Pentecostal Church setting, where you have ministers who are on the platform. Then one guy wanting to present his version of "what it is" to the entire church family. If the elders of the church can't see what you are sowing, then you are going to have a hard time planting. instead of beating an ecclesiastical dead horse, go find another more welcoming field.
God's Word is not a dead horse, but is alive and powerful. Do you not see how strong a reaction it has caused in your kicking against it, when I share it? Don, you can't even prove what you believe here to us! I can just imagine the looks on these minister's faces while you trip the light fantastic in the church office. Good God from Zion!
Rather, it should be asked: 'why hasn't properly-interpreted-Ro14 been received by those who say they love God's Word?' No one is responsible for another's lack of perception.
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Dom had said you have three roads to go down. One shut up and sit down. Two leave and take your beliefs down the road with you, or three, joust it out with the pastor, and elders. I replied#3 sounds like earnestly contend. So we agree.
Which part? Are you jousting with the pastor and the elders? How's that working out for you?
How's my jousting with those of AFF, you ask? No, you do not ask this, when it should be asked. You instead prefer to refer to something which may or may not exist. I'd wish you'd come back to reality, here in AFF.
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I'm just pieces this train wreck together as I read your posts. Don't start patting yourself on the back yet.
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Originally Posted by donfriesen1 View Post
why have you Dom been asleep at the helm of 'Good Ship AFF' and have not previously pointed out this neglect I see of Ro14 to Apostolics? Instead, it is left for some ecclesiastical narcissist to do it. Captain, you've been asleep at the wheel. I can tell you right now, I would love to be there when you give these guys the keys to your kingdom. Their eyes are going to roll over white.
I have chosen to contend for the Kingdom Paul refers to in Ro14. All who would desire to follow me would be directed by me to the only One worthy.
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This thread
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Oh, ok, so you are going into the pastor's office to tell him you are weak in the faith, and they should allow you to preach. Oh yeah, fun times.
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Dom also says:
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As long as you show love for the Word on a one on one with elders. You'll be good to go. I just wish I could be front row and center.
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But I understand you feel
deleted.... I call'em like I see'em. You just hand me the material. I already explained my thoughts on Romans.
Readers, I'll remind you what I said in post 21, which I now quote "I will predict that your future comments will claim that what (hasn't been here and now said) are the arguments you supposedly gave, which had refuted my contentions. But what you have said thus far falls far short of refuting." I made this prediction in post 21, writing it before reading his post 20. Unlike you, I made my thoughts short and sweet. If you didn't catch them that's not my problem. Go look.
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Change your ways and show my thoughts wrong, without name calling.
Change your ways, your gonna need it.
Those who walk in the Word need never feel ashamed. You should be ashamed for reasons written above, when providing counsel against scripture, along with wrong applications of scripture. But it is not yet too late for you. Turning to God with sincerity can bring about restoration.